I have seen the phrase, “All sins are equal” quite a bit on this site. It comes in various contexts, often in relation to homosexuality. True Believers claim that all sins are equal, while simultaneously claiming that only God may judge our sins. Since each sin is a sin against God, an infinite, each sin is infinite as well.
Nobody claiming this comes even close to believing it. It is the most self serving, hypocritical phrase frequently uttered around here. Each of these people has told numerous lies in their lives, but it is quite likely none would murder anybody. All things being equal both those actions would hold the same amount of horror. Each action carries the exact same stigma in the eyes of God, who, in theory, is far more important than society at large. They frequently use the principle to parley gay sex into murder, but never to reduce murder to lying or homosexual sex to taking the Lords name in vain. You see, that wouldn’t serve THEIR purposes.
They can say things like, “I may as well be a murderer in the eyes of God,” but they don’t believe it, not even half way. Do an experiment folks. Curse in front of one of these people, and then kill someone in front of them. If they had even the tiniest belief in these ideas their reaction to both acts will be identical, nothing.
That’s right, nothing. They don’t have the authority to judge your actions. Only God does. Perhaps they could tap you on the shoulder and say, “You know, God doesn’t like when you do that.” If these folk had even the tiniest conviction in their ideas they would be campaigning for all criminal sentences to be identical. Not even the Bible supports the idea. After all, many of these person’s favorite verses deal with punishment, and they are not all equal. The closest thing I can find is the Bible’s lovely propensity to have people stoned to death, but thieves simply have their hands removed. The very book they quote assigns different penalties to different crimes.
Ah, but there is a rationale against that idea. You see the criminal system punishes sins against society, not sins against God. Society, not being infinite, sees each sin as a finite violation of varying severity. It is not the job of Earthly courts to punish those who disobey God’s will, but to preserve society and order. Maybe that’s what the founders were getting at with the whole first amendment. The idea doesn’t really apply to the courts in the Bible though, because they were direct extensions of the church and just as responsible for God’s laws as societies laws.
So unless an action damages society it should remain legal. God’s moral code and the laws of the land are completely different entities based on completely different principles with completely different goals. The laws of society are pragmatic, the laws of God idealistic. The former is finite, the latter infinite.
So there you have it: a belief that nobody believes supports the idea that you should keep your God out of my law. If any of these philosophical parrots had any conviction in the idea that all sins are equal they would act in a completely different manner from the way they act now. Honestly, why claim to hold a belief that you don’t have and have no intention of following or applying to your daily life except to use it to serve your own purposes? This is a mighty reason I dislike religion, and Christianity in particular. Most people claim to hold beliefs that nearly every one of their actions contradicts, and then they start spouting of shit like “well nobody is perfect, we are all sinners.”
The highest leaders, and ostensibly the heaviest believers, of the Church seem to contradict the very beliefs that they preach. They preach poverty and generosity from the balconies of palaces. They preach against homosexuals while smoking meth and buying tricks from gay prostitutes. Catholic priests are sworn to celibacy, in what seems a direct violation of God’s first command to man in the world as we know it, “go forth and multiply (or be fertile).” They claim that all sins are equal for the express purpose of furthering their own goals and drives with no thought to what that idea might actually mean out here in the real world.
If we are all sinners, and we are all equal, then people should get the hell out of people’s faces and let them live their lives. Hell is each person’s own, personal, concern, not yours. All of my sins are exactly equal to yours, and your sins are exactly equal to mine, so shut the hell up and go volunteer at a soup kitchen.
I guess it all depends on how people react to religion. Everyone sined in their life. On the other hadn someone who lied to their parents about going to a party isnt the same as someone who murdered someone else!
Wonderful idea being put to the table. I have heard very religious people suggesting the very same "sin equality" stuff for the homosexual and other secular arguements, inlcuding abortion. Although some of the latter examples are a little presumptuous (sure, the priest-meth-homosexual-prostitute-rich connections have been reported, these cases are not necessarily the normal occurances), the core idea is very true.
Too often people try to raise "sins" (an abstract term that varies so greatly from one person to another that no two people, even in the same religion, agree completely on the terms and conditions) to epic proportions with "equal sin", but they tend to forget the other sins also scattered throughout the bible, and in some cases even the 10 Commandments (if you ever talked back to/argued with your mother or father you have committed an "epic sin").
Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised to find out just how many of those individuals who preach "equal sin" have even read all their bible to know what all the sins are. Not very many I'd venture to say. If they did they would realize that what you say is true: sins are punishable by different methods by god, therefore none are equal. That is even further taken up if you view hell as the way many, especially orthodox christians, religions do; as being a multiple layered infinite place. Different sins put you to a different layer of hell.
All stuff to think about. Thanks for the interesting blog!
~BLee
I'm somewhat religious (I hold certain ideals, but don't necessarily follow the religion to a T), and I have never thought that one sin is equal to another. I can't see how a white lie used to make someone feel better (thus leading to good) is equal to murder (which is obviously bad).
I think that in some cases, something as simple as lying can be equated to murder (i.e. lying in such a way to cause a number of deaths, and doing so with the intention of causing those deaths, rather than it being an accident), however, I do not believe that as humans we can honestly determine the difference between an accident and intent totally conclusively (though we do try).
~C
Visit my blog.
"keep your God out of my law," what a concept! wait a minute, isn't that already supposed to be happening in our country? hmmm...
Anyways, I think that people who take the Bible literally are morons, because the Bible itself has so many contradictions, which is why I think these ultra-religious people are so confused, and therefore, hypocritical. Their own God's word is so backwards and contradictory, they don't know what to believe!
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Stephen Colbert: Enemy of the Democrat?
I agree. I truly believe in seperation of church and state is bothers me to know end when teachers or the students bring in religion.
Conformity is the jailor of freedom and the enemy of growth!~JFK
I bring forth Dr. Gonzo a person with a brain!!!!
it kills me that people say that all sins are equal but yet look down upon me for being bisexual when they can lie to my face. GRRRRRR!
Keep the logic going!!!!
Conformity is the jailor of freedom and the enemy of growth!~JFK
"It is the most self serving, hypocritical phrase frequently uttered around here."
Do you live in some sort of Christian-cult commune? Sucks for you! Haha.
~Don't pray in our schools and I won't think in your church~
Insert Shameless Self-Promotion Here -- http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ada-castellon
I think in this particular post, "around here" means here on progressiveu.org, because so many radical Christians try to make arguments on this site using the same trite, pointless logic.
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Stephen Colbert: Enemy of the Democrat?
The good lord did torch Sodom and Gomorrah to cinders and ashes for you-know-what, but we don't see him torching murderers. You are right, we do not know how to judge the weight of sin in the eyes of God, but sin is sin. Does it really matter how bad it is? It's BAD.
Sodom and Gomorrah were burnt for a lot of things. Homosexual rape and prostitution was just among the long list of their trangressions.
"Sin is sin" works about the same way as "pain is pain." Stubbing a toe barely compares to being shot in the knee cap or having your fingers cut off.
Res ipsa loquitur.
memor mori, mahalo.
Sodom and Gomorrah were not torched for you know what...(oh, no not that word again---homosexuality)
They were committing the sin of being inhospitable, it was translated incorrectly.
"A prime part of the history of our Constitution...is the story of the extension of constitutional rights and protections to people once ignored or excluded." ~US Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg
I have actually heard of this topic before, but never really sat down to think of it. This is something that I will probably think of for a while and respond to in one of my blogs after I feel I have gathered all my thoughts successfully. Hm...great topic! That's all I could say right now =)
Have a good one! I would like to hear what you think of my VERY FIRST blog. You seem like you'd bring interesting points to the table and I would like to hear them!
http://www.progressiveu.org/050908-essay-inspiration-for-living
Have a good one!
TCHO
What's even more ludicrous is the notion that even thinking of sinning or wanting to commit a sin is the same as sinning. So by this logic, wanting to kill someone, even if only in a fleeting moment of sudden anger, is the same thing as killing someone. Well, no. There are significant differences, most notably that the other person is dead in one instance and not the other.
And then there's the creationist lying over evolution. Good God! The quote mining they do is so manipulative it's not even funny.
"CONSERVATIVE, n.
A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others."
- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
a sin , is a sin is a sin . god doesnt care how u sinned, u still broke is law or his rules to put it nicely.
im sre iff you cant follow ur parents rules it will be hard to follow americas and God's much more. so good luck with that.
all sins are sins to God , bottom line issss
you still have to repent.
ask for forgivenes, thats all you gotta do
Mizz B
Just because things are in the same category doesn't mean that they are equal. 1 and 100 are both numbers, just as lying and murder are both sins.
This blog isn't about who is going to hell and who isn't. We go to hell just by being born. Our first breath is a sin that condemns us to hell, according to God.
Would you consider someone who lied to your brother the same as one who killed your brother or raped your sister? Do you think God would?
All sins may require forgivness, but that doesn't make them equal.
Res ipsa loquitur.
memor mori, mahalo.
History is changing before our eyes!!! yippeeee
so just a week ago, the vatican declared that unbatized babies (that die of course) will now not go to hell!!! phew, amen. with the stroke of a pen, christian doctrine is changed...... yet again! I'm guessing they'll take back the 'born in sin' concept next. :]
this is a prime example of how misguided christianity is. well... at least they're progressing! I wouldn't be surprised if they used their logic all the way to islam!
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-04-20-popelimbo_N.htm
Islam doesn't sgree with itself anymore than Christianity does, nor is it based on "truth" anymore than Christianity. Same BS changes to doctrine and random interpretations by people. Same BS arrogance masquerading as humility.
As far as I can tell the jump from Jesus to Mohammed(sp?) has nothing to do with logic. It's just the acceptance of a newer profit. There aren't really any logical advantages to either.
All religion is human doctrine.
Res ipsa loquitur.
memor mori, mahalo.
You know, part of me agrees with your point of view. I haven't always been a religious person and I don't like religion in general. Yet, part of me is unsatisfied with taht point of view.
and i believe that if there is a religion worth following, a religion that is fulfilling and logical, it's Islam. There is no 'jump' from Jesus to Muhammad (pbut). It is the same message. Islam does however have an intact, unaltered book and teachings. And there aren't authority figures like a Pope or Priests that can change stuff.
Anyway, read the mystical poet Rumi's "Only Breath":
Not Christian or Jew or Muslim, not Hindu
Buddhist, sufi, or zen. Not any religion
or cultural system. I am not from the East
or the West, not out of the ocean or up
from the ground, not natural or ethereal, not
composed of elements at all. I do not exist,
am not an entity in this world or in the next,
did not descend from Adam and Eve or any
origin story. My place is placeless, a trace
of the traceless. Neither body or soul.
I belong to the beloved, have seen the two
worlds as one and that one call to and know,
first, last, outer, inner, only that
breath breathing human being.
"Do an experiment folks. Curse in front of one of these people, and then kill someone in front of them. If they had even the tiniest belief in these ideas their reaction to both acts will be identical, nothing."
You were right man, they only got mildly irritated by the cursing, but when I really got down to business they started acting all mental. It's the lies that get to me.
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I am the people my mother warned me about.
a sin is a sin in the eyes of God, but that doesn't make them equal.
if u stole a cookie or murdered an enemy, they are both a sin, and u need forgiveness, because the point is that you did something wrong.
So... you agree that all sins are NOT created equal? Which was the point of the blog. So, what don't you agree with? Did you even read the blog?
~C
Visit my blog: www.progressiveu.org/blog/mvenus929
Read the news: www.progressiveu.org/news
ah... "mvenus929" i don't agree wit the fact that 'whoever' is saying the bible don't make sense! ya happy?
Perhaps you'd like to try arguing? The Bible contains many contradictions, or passages that can mean almost anything. When such a shaky base is used to propagate dogma people like me start feeling a little annoyed, but this wasn't about whether or not the Bible makes sense.
I didn't say that the Bible doesn't make sense anywhere in my blog. I said that the belief that people claim to have is neither evident in their actions, nor the holy book from which they claim to get it.
The idea that we all commit sins and must ask forgivness for those sins does not make all those sins equal. Numbers are numbers, but 1 and 2 have different values. Until recently Catholics handed out penance during confession in the form of prayers to be recited. The number and type of prayer to be recited differed depending on the sin.
Just as I said, nobody actually believes that all sins are equal except when it benefits them.
Res ipsa loquitur.
memor mori, mahalo.
Wow... look at how far we've come. As a born and bred Christian, I can see where some folk might get off saying that all sins are equal. Unfortunately, I was also raised to think. Equating lying to murder? Even in the eyes of God in seems a little harsh. I have to admit, when I hear things like that, it really makes me wonder what the Church is really trying to do. Putting the "fear of God" in folk will not stop them from continuing bad acts... the only thing that can do that is a swift moral lesson, however one thinks it should be taught.
I dig it. I agree. Have a cookie.