Thoughts on life. Either we were created to serve a purpose or we are just a cosmic accident. There's no in between. If we are just an accident, then why does it matter what we do? Our species is going to be extinct someday, everything's going to end eventually, so, why bother living now? If there's no right and wrong then we can all do as we please and live or die as we want. It doesn't matter. I could commit the most heinous crime and nobody can judge or condemn me because there is no right or wrong. Going further off of that premise, why live. If you're going to die someday then why live? Some people say that our goal is to reproduce our species. Well if our species is going to die off someday, why does that even matter? There is no point to life.
Now on the other side of the coin, if there is a purpose to life, if we were put here for a reason, then we have someone who is eternal to answer to for what we did in this life. If we followed our purpose or rejected it, either way, we're accountable in eternity. The universe had a beginning and so did time. These are facts that if you ponder over, you will find them to be true. The fact that it exists is proof that it was created. Things can't come from nothing science tells us, so going off of that premise, all matter, space and time was created. By who? Ask yourself that question...
This isn't a religious blog. This is a facts blog. I just wanted to write this in response to peoples ideas that maybe there's no point to life. Consider both sides. I'm not pushing either. If you think that there is no point to life, then there's no point to living. But if you think there is a point to life, you must search it out for yourself. I think this is a personal issue...
What is it with you guys? Have you overdosed on a diet of religious pablum to the extent that you really believe that if your silly delusion is not real then life is meaningless?
I don't share your delusion and yet my life is meaningful. I have people I love. I have goals I want to achieve. I ideals I want to live up to. You don't need God to do that. You need to use your evolution-given brain to determine what is important in your life, form worthwhile goals, the vision to achieve them, and willpower to carry it through.
Yes, to the best of our knowledge at the moment everything in the universe will evaporate away due to the unstoppable effects of entropy. However, I couldn't even predict that Google would be a good investment, I'm not placing that much confidence in my ability to predict what will happen in the far distant future. I am quite sure that in the future, things we think impossible today will be found to be feasable. For all I know, we may be able to create new universes on our own, and life will not inevitably be snuffed out. But suppose we don't. Suppose it is as the best of our knowledge indicates it is ... life is doomed. To the best of our knowledge that wont occur for a few trillion years. Even if the worst case scenario is realized, it would be a bit ridiculous for me to worry about that now.
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
Ok, I don't mind that you insult our differences. I wont descend to that level. However, I must point out that if we are the result of evolution then there's no point to life. The reason I posted that post was because I have to point out the inevitable course of all life, according to natural science, and that is that all life ends. Ok so lets say that in a trillion years we're smart enough to "invent" some way to create more universes... and in that universe life is created and it goes through the same process of evolving to the state that it can create more universes. What if something went wrong. What if that new life died out before it could find a way to create another universe. How long do you think we can cheat death. Maybe for trillions of trillions of trillions of years... but in light of eternity, we ARE GOING TO DIE. There's no denying it.
Ok so you revel in believing that there is no God. I'm not going to argue that point because it's your own view. So if there is no creator, then there's no purpose to life and as I explained above, we're all going to die. It's not a question of if we're going to die, it's a question of when. That's a fact. So ok, we're just a cosmic accident. How does love give you purpose in life? Love is a mental concept in the light of evolution. It gives no one any purpose in life. So no matter what your gifts to humanity, our species is going to go extinct at some point in time and then all of your lifes work will be meaningless. Oh, he gave humanity a cure for cancer and saved millions of lives... so what! If we're all going to die, it doesn't matter how long you delayed it.
-Cheez Out-
There may be no point for you to live without your god, but that doesn't extend to me. I admit that, as a species, we have no particular purpose. But as individuals, we have dreams and aspirations, friends and loved ones. I don't need to be part of some grand plan to have a purpose in life. For me, living that life to it's greatest potential is purpose enough for me.
As for morality. There are plenty of reasons to be moral without god. One, decency. I don't need god to tell me "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." It seems like common sense to me.
And, if this life is all a person has, it very much matters, on a personal level, how long that life is extended.
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
Who cares if you're "decent" or not? If we're all going to die someday then who the heck cares if you were "decent"? What is the meaning of your life? It's inevitable that we're all going to die so there really is no meaning to living. Do what you want but when faced by eternity, your life will be meaningless. Mine will too. Unless we were put here for a reason... then our purpose in life should be that reason...
-Cheez Out-
I have more time now so I'll go into more detail. I don't know how many times I have heard this argument, and it is perhaps the most pathetic argument I have ever heard. And by pathetic here, I don't mean the logic of the argument (although that too is terribly flawed). The patheticness of the argument lies with the person presenting it. If you cannot find something in this amazing universe to give your life meaning even without God then you ARE pathetic. Simple as that.
Now with that rant out of the way, let's look at your argument:
That is so Christian of you. In return I'll try not to sink to your level of maudlin dribble.
There you go again. We ARE the product of evolution. The evidence for that is overwhelming. That doesn't rule out a creator by the way. When I discuss why it is that I am an atheist, the only time I ever bring up evolution is to show that the argument from design is flawed. There are two reasons I am an atheist. (1) Nothing in the natural world suggests a god., and (2) the book that so many people claim to be God's message to us, is fatally flawed.
Furthermore, there are HUGE numbers of theists that believe in modern evolutionary theory. The Discovery Institute, the headquarters of Intelligent Design, likes to tout their Scientists Dissent from Darwin letter in which over 700 people with doctoral degrees have signed. Strange they seldom mention the The Clergy Letter Project in which over 11,000 members of the clergy have signed a letter ENDORSING EVOLUTION.
Neither I, nor any of those people feel like life is meaningless. So when you claim it is, then that is obviously not a statement of fact, it is a statement of your opinion ... and a maudlin one it is.
Yes, all life comes to an end. But it is a non-sequitur to claim that makes life meaningless. In fact, it is what GIVES one the motivation to make life meaningful. This is it. This is the only shot we have. You better make it the best life you possibly can.
If things were the way you claim then other than getting us into heaven our life is meaningless. According to you we (OK, you actually) are going to spend ETERNITY in heaven. At some point the 100 years or so that we spend on this earth will become meaningless. If I TRULY believed that there was a God and I was going to heaven then I would be spending my time doing high risk activities like scaling Yosemite's Half Dome freestyle, so I could start my existence in eternal bliss as soon as possible. Why aren't you doing that?
I don't plan on cheating death. I realize I am going to die. But I plan on making that the last thing I ever do ... and in the meantime I am going to make my life here on this earth the best life I can make it. In doing that I realize that what is important to me is the personal relationships I have with the people I care about. I am going to keep them strong. I am going to look out for their welfare. I am going to try to make the world a better place because I know that some of those people will live after me. From that I derive meaning. The meaning in my life is as good (and from the way you have presented your argument so far, I would say, significantly better) than what you derive by postulating an unseen, unseeable, omnibenevolent sky-daddy watching over you.
As to how long the human species can fend off death, I don't know. I doubt if we make it another million years. We might not make it another thousand years. But either of those two timescales is meaningless to me. I have traced my ancestry back a thousand years, but to me those people are just names.The timescales that are meaningful to me are the timescales of the lifetimes of myself and the people I love.
On the other hand, perhaps the human species will find ways to leave this planet, colonize the universe, and make new universes for themselves to go into. In that case, we might just fend off death forever. I am not qualified to make authoritative predictions on what we will or will not accomplish.
There you go again. Instead of making stupid statements, try reading what others say. You keep telling me there is no purpose in life ... foolishness! I have already told you that my life has purpose. You seem to ignore that inconvenient fact for your theory.
At best you can say that without God, YOUR life has no purpose. Now do you get an idea of why it is that I see this argument as expressing your patheticness?
Er ... instead of worrying about dying, why don't you worry about living. It is how you LIVE your life that gives it meaning. The fact that you are going to die only means that you need to make every moment count.
See what I mean about YOUR patheticness?
I'm going to do a stilted comparison. The theist is going to be an artificial and stereotyped creation, but it is not going to be NEARLY as stereotyped and artificial as your presentation of life without God.
Atheistic meaning in life: I devote my life to seeing to the welfare of those I love. I realize that I cannot find happiness unless those I love are happy. Our happiness is tied together. That is not a burden, it is a goal.
Theistic meaning in life: I devote my life to worshiping God. I haven't got a clue why an infinite being is so desirous of my worship but I'll do it anyway because that is what I am supposed to do. I haven't got a clue why I am supposed to do that other than a book and my pastor says that I am.
One of those statements looks meaningful. One looks hollow.
You have my sincere condolences,
DB
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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
Number one, either you didn't read my posts and comments or your "evolved" brain is too small to comprehend the fact of Eternity.
Number two, if you do comprehend the fact of eternity, then you have no basis to attack the truths I laid before me.
Number three, people who truly believe in God(I'm not talking about religions. Get your mind off of that.) have done the most good in the earth. Take atheism on the other hand. I've extensively researched WWII and it's causes and did you know that the Nazi's beliefs were largely influenced by Darwin's Theory of Evolution. According to Hitler, killing the Jews, Gypsies and eventually his plan to kill off every other race on earth except for the master race was just to bring along the next step in our species "evolution". Those are facts, go research it for yourself before you try to counter it. I'm not talking about a quick google search to find some blogger who agrees with you that you can quote. I'm talking about reading biographies by renowned writers.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU HAVE PURPOSE IN YOUR LIFE?!!!! What you have is a delusion that your life will count for something. Well think about it for a second... if everything's going to come to an end, then whatever you do in your life is COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS. Whether you try to ascribe worth to your life or not, the fact is, that without a GIVEN purpose, you CANNOT just give yourself purpose outside of the reason that you were created. You just can't. You are MORTAL. Do you even know what that means? Listen, when you're on your deathbed someday, maybe then you'll realize that, "Hey! I'm about to die! What have I wasted my life on?" I'm not saying that doing "good"(try to define that outside of devine rules... I dare you...)is a waste of time, cuz it isn't, but when you do it outside of the purpose you were created for, then it's useless.
What's more hollow? Following facts or trying to synthesize some meaning for your life out of flawed thinking? I will say it to your face, I have thought about this topic for the entirety of my life. If I found what I was doing to be illogical, my mind would torture me and honestly I would know. Now I'm telling you, after years of thinking about eternity and it's implications, I am giving you honestly thought out facts. I don't intend to "win" this argument cuz it's on the internet and if you're not going to be truely honest with your very intellect then I'm not going to argue with you. I just pray(cuz, according to facts, there is a God to pray to) that you will someday, after honestly thinking about this topic, come to the same conclusion.
-Cheez Out-
... the stultifying effect that religion can have on some people.
LOL, I'll leave it to readers of this exchange to determine the relative sizes of our brains.
(1) You have laid out assertion without reason to back it up. That does not qualify as "truth".
(2) I have given you reasons why it is that I think your pathetic carping about the meaningless of life IS ... well for lack of a better description ... PATHETIC CARPING. You come back with ... ad hominem and more assertion without a single bit of reasoning that you are right.
(1) You try to make a distinction between people who believe in God and Religions. I suspect you use that attribute all the evils to religion and all the good to the people. But it is nothing more than the "No True Scotsman" fallacy (Google it). Religions are made up of people who believe in God and those people have done a lot of bad. Do you want me to go into detail?
(2) The greatest practical good in this world, curing diseases. improved technologies, etc. have come from science. Science is the only occupation in which non-believers outnumber believers.
LOL who do you consider a renown writer? James Dobson? Hitler did nothing that the leaders of the Spanish Inquisition didn't try to do, and they used the bible for their inspiration.
If you want to ACTUALLY know something about which you talk about, how about doing some REAL investigation. Here is an online copy of Hitler's MEIN KAMPF
Search it. I searched for "Darwin", and guess what? The name is not in there. I searched for "evolution" and found it used 12 times only. Here is the most damaging paragraph:
Since you know squat about evolutionary theory, you probably think that Hitler is accurately describing it. He isn't. He is placing people (his organism) on a linear scale ... superior/stronger to inferior/weaker. There is no such scale. Modern evolutionary theory uses a term, "Fitness" that people who know squat about it THINKS is such a scale. But fitness is determined as much (if not more) by the local environment of an organism as by the traits the organism possesses. In other words, no trait is universally fitter than another. My guess is that you have in the past used the argument that if evolution were true then why do chimpanzees still exist. The reason is that chimpanzees are adapted to their local environments and we are adapted to ours. We would be less fit than chimpanzees in an environment that required us to glean fruit from trees.
Thus, even if Hitler IS using evolution to justify his actions, it certainly isn't modern evolutionary theory. It isn't even DARWINIAN evolutionary theory. Even Darwin knew the importance of environment in determining fitness. He is using some intuitive theory of his own. I don't see that as being a problem for evolutionary theory, nor is it a problem that should even be blamed on evolutionary theory.
But let's not stop there. Let's go back to Mein Kampf and do some more searching to see if we can find any more damaging paragraphs.
Using the search term "Christian"
Well, well. Hatred for the Jews based on Jesus' supposed dislike for them and their supposed complicity in his crucifixion. Hmm. sound religious to me.
Using the search term "Christian"
More hatred for the Jews based not on biology but on his Christian religion
Using the search term "Christian"
More bigotry based on religion. So it looks like Hitler's bigotry is more religion based than is it biologically based.
I am sure that you would argue that religion should not be blamed for its misuse by a megalomaniacal whacko like Hitler. And in my opinion that would be a legitimate argument. In fact, it is the same argument I use with respect to evolution.
Picture this conversation:
Person 1: "You lead a miserable life"
Person 2: "Not really. In fact I am very happy. I have a wife, a wonderful child, and I make a pretty good living. Why would I not be happy?"
Person1: "You are deluded. You aren't happy, you are miserable."
Person 2: "So let me get this straight. Just because I think I am happy, doesn't mean that I am really happy. You are a better judge of my own happiness than I am. Hmm... I guess I'll let others judge who is the deluded one here."
The same thing goes for this discussion. You keep telling me my life is meaningless and purposeless without God. I tell you that my life does have meaning and purpose to me. In fact, I tell you exactly where the meaning come from. Yet you keep insisting that you know my mind better than I do. I'll let others judge who is deluded.
OK, I've thought about it. It's not true. What I do affects others, not just me. My actions contribute to the quality of life of not only myself but to the people I love. And those people actually exist.
You are babbling like a maniac. You string non-sequitur after non-sequitur (Do you even know what that means?). Of course you can ascribe worth and meaning to your life. You are the only one who determines what is worthwhile to you, so you cannot help but ascribe worth. If you do things that you think are worthy then you have a worthwhile life by simple definition.
Now one thing that I find interesting in this conversation ... you keep saying that life is purposeless unless God himself gives purpose to it. You claim that God has created you for a specific purpose. But in this conversation, I am the only one who has actually given a specific purpose for living. So tell us, oh wonderful one ... what purpose has God made you for? Let's see if your God-given purpose matches my "me-given" purpose.
LOL, I spewed diet coke out my nose when I read that. I am doing a pretty good job on NOT wasting my time. You on the other hand, when you are lying on your death bed better hope you are right. If you aren't then you will have wasted a whole hell of a lot of precious moments in the only life you will ever have worshiping that which doesn't exist.
(1) Try defining "good" inside divine rules. Have you ever hear of the Euthyphro Dialogues? Click on the link, it takes you to a blog I did that discusses it. It comes from Plato's DIALOGUES, and the argument shows that God cannot be the source of morality.
(2) Good is that which benefits me and the ones I love without harming others.
(3) Again you babble. (A) We were not create for a purpose. (B) We determine our own purpose. (C) It is not useless. Now, I have just given you 3 assertions. The difference between us is that (except for A; for which I have given evidence in other blogs) I have already given you straight-forward reasoning that takes your argument into account. You keep babbling the same assertions without addressing any of my arguments.
I think it is pretty hollow telling someone that what they think they feel is not what they really feel. I think is hollow holding onto a belief that is obviously contradicted before your face. I think it is hollw believing that it takes an imaginary sky-daddy to give one's life meaning. I think you are hollow ... and I think religion has made you that way. Again, you have my sincere condolences on that.
If that is true, then you have spent a lifetime thinking poorly.
Except NOTHING you have given me is a fact. It is all your opinion. I have shown you flaw after flaw in your reasoning, and you have the gall to claim that simply because you have thought about it for a long time that you are right. But you have not addressed any of the flaws.
That's good. Others can think what they wish but I think you are losing big time.
Again, I'll leave it to others to judge who in this discussion is not being "truely [sic] honest".
And what "facts" are those?
I just hope that some day you will honestly think.
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
I guess I lied. I am commenting again...
How Dare You? How dare you tell me that my life is pointless without god? Here's a thought. Try living someone else's life before you tell that person their life has no purpose.
How dare you tell me that my life is a delusion? And I know you're talking to DB, but it applies to me as well. What do you think gives you the right to tell me that what I care about in my life is a delusion? Honestly, who do you think you are?
"What's more hollow? Following facts or trying to synthesize some meaning for your life out of flawed thinking?"
What's more hollow, living life according to your own set of beliefs or trying to tell everyone else how wrong they are for not believing the same thing?
"I will say it to your face, I have thought about this topic for the entirety of my life. If I found what I was doing to be illogical, my mind would torture me and honestly I would know."
How long, exactly, is your entire life? And again, why is it that you thinking about it and not me thinking about it that makes you the right one?
"Now I'm telling you, after years of thinking about eternity and it's implications, I am giving you honestly thought out facts."
What facts? What can you prove to me beyond reasonable doubt? How dare you tell me that it is a fact that my life has no purpose?
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
As shocking as it may seem to some who are unacquainted with heathens, most of them have very purposeful lives, some of them work for the betterment of humanity and their communities, and almost all of them understand right from wrong.
I *heart* heathens!
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
I know and love many "heathens". I live amongst them. According to some religions, I am a heathen! That wasn't my point. My point is that it doesn't matter who you loved or what you did in this life if we're all going to die someday. Even if you delayed the inevitable, finally at the end, whenever that WILL be, what we did and said will be meaningless... I'm not arguing for a religion or for right and wrong. I'm giving you hard facts and I'm letting you decide what they mean for your life. If you decide that you want to be a Muslim in light of these facts, I'm not going to hinder you. I don't care, as long as you honestly answer these questions...
-Cheez Out-
That's why I'm agnostic. The "where did it all come from" question.
But you posed another question, too, and that was the one to which I was responding. You asked if it matters whether we do right or wrong if we have no belief in an afterlife (I'm paraphrasing, of course). I posit that it does matter. And I felt the need to defend my atheist friends who are often called satanists (which is theism) and murderers (though none of them have ever murdered) and abortionists (though one of them is even pro-life). I think atheists have more faith in the innate goodness of humanity, because they don't believe in original sin.
But what do I know? I'm an indecisive agnostic. ;)
Also, for some reason, I prefer writing out the *heart*. It has an irony to it that I appreciate.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
No I'm not saying that I think it doesn't matter if we do right or wrong if there is no afterlife. That's nothing that I can say. It's a definite truth. If we are just the result of evolution or whatever, and we're going to die someday(which I think I effectively proved... I hope), then there is no right or wrong so while you say that people who do good have purpose in life, you contradict yourself because there is no right or wrong. There is no good or bad. That's if you go off of the premise that we weren't designed to be here. Like you said, Atheists are optimists. I'd say even more so than a lot of people with religion. I can't deny that. But if you say that they believe in the innate goodness of humanity, that's ascribing a certain viewpoint with the title "goodness". But if it all is meaningless in the light of forever, there is no goodness and there is no badness. So atheists are no different that people who sacrifice humans alive on ancient Mayan altars. Neither of them are right or wrong.
On the other hand, if we are here for a purpose(I'm not going to tell you what purpose, that's something you must search for yourself I think...) then there is a right and there is a wrong. I'm not saying that whatever we say nowadays is right and wrong is the real definition. I'm saying, whoever put us here established what is right and what is wrong and we are responsible to that person(I'm just using the word 'person' because I don't know what else to call the creator... well... I could think of some names but that's not what I'm here to prove...) alone. Not to what everyone else thinks is the truth because they're basing it off of a false premise.
Anyways, this was a long comment, I should've put it in a blog but ok whatever, I appreciate that you read all the way through though! And I agree, putting asterix's around a verb adds something to it that a symbol doesn't...=) or... * big cheezy smile *
-Cheez Out-
First of all, this comment is not to long. If you look around, it pales in comparison to plenty of comments.
And, second, you are absolutely, 100% incorrect to say that, without god, there is no right and wrong. I believe that morality has two sources. The first, and most basic stuff, don't kill, don't steal, comes from a social instinct that exists because we are descended from social animals and remain so today and, we have to know what will stop a society from running smoothly. The second is social construct. Societies construct different ideas of what is moral based on their culture, situation, traditions and so on and so forth.
If god said today "Sorry folks, I don't exist", nothing would change for me. I'd still try and do the right thing. I'd still have purpose in my life.
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
Who cares about living together socially and morals if we're all going to die?! If I knew that I wasn't put here on purpose then I could be a mass murderer and not feel bad about it. And if you judged me then you would be ascribing actual parameters on what is right and wrong. So what if I killed a bunch of people?! They were going to die anyways. In fact everything is going to die anyways so why not kill it all right now? Think outside of just today. Think outside of tomorrow. Think outside of in a hundred years. Think outside of a billion years. Think of FOREVER... if you can. It is hard to I admit that because everyone naturally thinks of the present. I don't care if you make a decision to do any thinking. I just hope that someday, after thinking it out for yourself, you will come to a conclusion in light of facts. Not in light of what your opinions are, not in light of mine, not in light of the present, past or future, but in light of eternity...
-Cheez Out-
"Who cares about living together socially and morals if we're all going to die?! "
I do.
"If I knew that I wasn't put here on purpose then I could be a mass murderer and not feel bad about it."
That is really kind of sad. I don't think I was put here for a purpose. But I certainly don't think that I should wander around gleefully killing people. You made need the threat of demnation to stop you from doing that. I don't.
"fact everything is going to die anyways so why not kill it all right now? "
Because, believing that everything is going to die eventually should give you a greater respect for their right to live.
"Think outside of just today. Think outside of tomorrow. Think outside of in a hundred years. Think outside of a billion years. Think of FOREVER... if you can."
I'll certainly try, but I don't think that anyone can really think about forever.
"It is hard to I admit that because everyone naturally thinks of the present."
Speak for yourself. I think about the future a lot.
"I don't care if you make a decision to do any thinking. I just hope that someday, after thinking it out for yourself, you will come to a conclusion in light of facts. Not in light of what your opinions are, not in light of mine, not in light of the present, past or future, but in light of eternity..."
All I know is that I know nothing. I could be wrong. If god came out of the heavens tomorrow, I'd admit it in a heart beat. But right now, I will only accept as truth those things that have been show, beyond reasonble douct, to exist.
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
"my point is that it doesn't matter who you loved or what you did in this life if we're all going to die someday. Even if you delayed the inevitable, finally at the end, whenever that WILL be, what we did and said will be meaningless..."
So what? That's more of a reason to live a full and good life, not less of one. And again, why do we have to be part of some huge scheme to feel good about ourselves? I'd rather be a free entity than a pawn any day.
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
What's a "full and good" life? You're saying that you know what a "full and good" life is. But if we're going to die, then there is no "good" life and there is no "bad" life...
-Cheez Out-
Yes, there is a good life. A good life would be that I spend my time on Earth in a way that I consider signifigant, and that I am happy, or at least content. That is, to me, a good life. Just because we die doesn't mean we were never alive, even if no one remembers us.
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
Ahhh. Thanks. :dances:
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
Nice blog and I agree there is a point to life.