Without Jesus as the center of my life, I would be an entirely different person. He has changed me in so many unimaginable ways, and I can't even express they joy that I have to be one of His followers.
Jesus died for ME! What a concept. Would you die for every sinner in the world? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to do that. To know that I am basically perfect in every way, but let myself die to save everyone's imperfections? That is intense love right there.
The other post, "Got Jesus," by Mel, focused on the terrors of Hell and having afear of God. But I think more than we need to fear God we need to love Him and realize the absolutely HUGE amount of love he has for each any every one of us. Even if you are an athiest guess what? - God still loves you. Even if you don't believe in His existence, He still loves you since you are His child.
It's almost Easter, which is when Jesus resurrected. And Good Friday is when He died, giving up Himself for every sinner. He opened the gates of Heaven so that all of us who follow His will can end up in eternal paradise.
Many peole celebrate Easter, Christmas, and other Christian holidays even if they aren't Christian or just don't really know what it's about. Easter is not about candy or the Easter bunny - it's about Jesus' miraculous resurrection from the dead.
Every sunday at every Catholic Mass there is a miracle taking place. Ordinary bread and wine turning into Jesus' actual flesh and blood. At every Mass we Catholics can receive Him, and then He, in turn, helps us to cope with our hectic lives.
Without my faith in Jesus, I would be such a worse person. I have had so many intense struggles in my life, but you know what helps me through? Knowing that this is just a tiny part of my life. This is my road to Heaven. And there will be struggles because that's just life, but as long as I keep up my faith in God, I can realize my ultimate goal: getting to eternal paradise in Heaven. And in times of difficulty when i have felt completely alone I know that I am not because God is there watching over me.
Next year I'll be attending Franciscan University of Steubenville, a passionately Catholic university. I am so excited to be there. Ane I never intended to go to a Catholic school, but at a Catholic youth conference in '04 my life was changed and I realized that I had to follow God's will and part of that would be to go to a Catholic school.
I could go on about this forever, but any of you who may be celebrating East in the upcoming week, I hope you realize what it is actually about. I mean, I know athiests who still celebrate Easter and Christmas - what a hypocritical contradiction!
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Easter, Christmas, and "other" Christian holidays were around even before Christianity. Christmas is largely based on the Roman holiday of Saturnalia, a weeklong event full of exchange of presents and promiscuous behavior. The date for Christmas was chosen based on Mithras, a Persian god of light and truth whom the pioneers of Christianity felt best described Jesus (he was actually born sometime in the summer, I do believe). Furthermore, Easter is also a time when fertility celebrations went on. Thus the eggs and rabbits; signs of fertility. It is widely known that the Catholic church adopted "heathen" holidays and traditions in order to make the transition from paganism to christianity easier.
"Seriously, do you see any easter bunny that hops around in the New Testament?"
Christians aren't worshipping the Easter bunny. All that is just commercial. You'll never see an Easter bunny or Santa Claus on the altar of a Catholic church.
But I still believe athiests who celebrate holidays like Christmas and Easter are hypocrites. How can you celebrate a holiday that has the name "Christ" right in its name?
"And Halloween, this is pure pagan revelry of pagan gods, demons, and faeries here!"
I didn't mention Halloween because I know, that has nothing to do with the Catholic faith. I'm not talking about every holiday. Of course there's tons of holidays that aren't Christian-oriented, but there's many that are....even St. Patrick's Day, and (St.) Valentine's Day. Now they've become so mainstreamed that everyone celebrates these holidays. St. Patricks day is in remembrance of St. Patrick who converted basically the entire country of Ireland into Catholic Christians since they had all been Pagans. But now, here in the U.S., everyone just goes out and gets wasted. That is not at all what the holiday was intended to be.
"But I still believe athiests who celebrate holidays like Christmas and Easter are hypocrites. How can you celebrate a holiday that has the name "Christ" right in its name?"
Because it's actually a pagan holiday with a Christian name slapped onto it.
You didn't read what I wrote, did you? These Christian Holidays are NOT Christian Holidays. They are pagan! By participating with the traditions of Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, you are literally re-enacting rituals to praise pagan gods! If you do either of these traditions, you are re-enacting worship for "false" gods! Don't you realize that?
And give me a break, do you think any atheist celebrates these holidays in the name of "Christ"? There is Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny -- there are no connections to Christ in those celebrations.
And then you talk about St. Patrick's, how it is not being celebrated as it ought too while this is the exact same deal with Easter and Christmas! The Christian imposed traditions came much later after the fact in the similar vein that drinking green beer came much after the fact of the original traditions for St. Patricks!
You calling atheists hypocrites is the largest irony. You, by re-enacting rituals to praise pagan gods, are committing not just hypocrisy, but also blasphemy and idolatry!
Citizen Press Revolution
♥
It doesn't matter if these holidays originated from something Pagan because the fact of the matter is that the holidays are about Christ, no matter what. I don't see how you can actual say you're celebrating Christmas if you're a true athiest. I mean, you can make the argument for lots of things that they originated differently from what they are today, but is that really important?
Your beliefs in Christ are irrelevant to people celebrating these holidays. They are only relevant to people who believe like you do who are celebrating these holidays by super-imposing their beliefs into them.
Christ is irrelevant to the celebration of these holidays to tens of millions of people. And Christ is only relevant to these holidays for Christians who couldn't make up their own day to celebrate their beliefs on and instead super-imposed their beliefs and celebration of these beliefs unto holidays that had already existed.
X-mas is our modern culture's version of a winter holiday. Easter is our modern culture's version of a holiday to celebrate spring.
These holidays have existed in one manifestation or another for thousands of years before Jesus Christ was claimed to be born.
And for the tens and hundreds of millions (hell, billions) of people who don't believe in Christ, Christ is completely irrelevant to these holidays and their celebrating of these holidays.
Just because one group (Christians) super-imposed their beliefs in a vision about what the existing holidays should be about does not mean that the group (Christians) somehow can "own" these holidays.
Christians don't own these holidays.
In a sense really, they just butted in one year and set their own stall up for the celebrations of the existing holidays which were already there. They are only mere partipants with their own version of these holidays.
And you still have not dealt with the issue that many of the rituals involved are re-enactments of worship for "pagan" gods and the implications of blasphemy, hypocrisy, and idolatry for you if you do those same things.
The only way you could escape those claims is if you did nothing with Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or Halloween.
These holidays existed for thousands of years among pagans. The modern day versions are, to me, simply commercialized versions of winter and spring celebrations. This is how I treat them. Many just treat them as a reason to celebrate and be happy for happy's sake.
Christians didn't invent these holidays. They never owned these holidays.
They are just a group of participants that have one of many visions of what these holidays should be about.
They are just one of many "booths" people set up in the celebrations of these holidays.
Citizen Press Revolution
Christ is irrelevant to these holidays? I completely disagree. If He was irrelevant and the holidays are just based on presents, family time, Santa, the Easter Bunny, etc, then why wouldn't Jews, Muslims, and every other religious group participate in these holidays?
"X-mas is our modern culture's version of a winter holiday. Easter is our modern culture's version of a holiday to celebrate spring."
-I unfortunately agree with you, but that is not what it should be. And like I said before, if that's all it is, why don't other religions celebrate these holidays? I sure don't know any Jews who celebrate Christmas. Yet some of you athiests do? It doesn't make any sense.
"These holidays have existed in one manifestation or another for thousands of years before Jesus Christ was claimed to be born."
-No, not all of these holidays.
The origins of Easter...
www.gotquestions.org/easter-origins.html
"When second century Christian missionaries wanted the Saxons to accept Christianity, they decided to use the name Easter for this holiday so that it would match the name of the old Spring celebration. This made it more comfortable for those converts to accept Christianity and still retain some of their heritage. The goddess Eastres' earthly symbol was the rabbit, which was also known as a symbol of fertility."
www.logon.org/english/s/p235.html
"Christians have been conditioned to accept that Christmas and Easter are essentially part of the Christian tradition. The facts are that neither are at all Christian and both have their roots in the mystery cults, The Saturnalia, the worship of the Mother goddess system and the worship of the Sun god. They are directly contradictory to the laws of God and His system."
Both sites are Christian websites.
Further down the page on...www.logon.org/english/s/p235.html
Christmas and the Heavenly Virgin
In the Julian calendar, 25 December was reckoned as the winter solstice (Frazer, ibid., p. 303; cf. Pliny Natural History, xviii, p. 221). It was regarded as the nativity of the Sun as its days began to lengthen, and its power increased from that turning point of the year.
The ritual of the nativity, Frazer holds, as it was celebrated in Syria and Egypt was remarkable. The celebrants retired into certain inner shrines from which at midnight they issued a loud cry, The Virgin has brought forth! The Light is waxing! (ibid., cf. Cosmas Hierosolymitanus, see fn. 3 to p. 303)
The Egyptians even represented the newborn Sun by an image of an infant which, on his birthday (the winter solstice), they brought forth and exhibited to his worshippers (ibid., cf., Macrobius Saturnalia, i, 18, 10)
Frazer says:
No doubt the Virgin who thus conceived and bore a son on the twenty-fifth of December was the great Oriental goddess whom the Semites called the Heavenly Virgin or simply the Heavenly Goddess; in Semitic lands she was a form of Astarte (ibid., noting Franz Cumont s.v. Caelestis in Pauly-Wissowa’s Real-Encyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft, v, 1, 1247, sqq).
This is the origin of the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of the mother of Jesus Christ. It has no basis in the Bible or in fact. Christ’s mother was not named Mary and the Bible is clear that she bore other children.
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The Catholic liturgist Mario Righetti (in addition to Duchesne and also Cullman) held that:
After the peace of the Church of Rome, to facilitate the acceptance of the faith by the pagan masses, found it convenient (sic) to institute the 25th of December as the feast of the temporal birth of Christ, to divert them from the pagan feast, celebrated on the same day in honour of the "Invincible Sun" Mithras, the conqueror of darkness (fn 74, II, p. 67 quote also in Bacchiocchi, From Sabbath to Sunday, Pontifical Gregorian University Press, Rome, 1977, p. 260).
*remember* this was written by the Christian Churches of God, so you cannot dismiss it as atheist influenced
The facts cannot be denied.
You can try to curtail from admitting that you are wrong by this and that quip. It doesn't matter.
All historical evidence points that Christmas and Easter are not Christian Holidays, but that Christians added their own spin into these holidays.
Now, if you truly believe in the example of Jesus Christ, you can show humility and acknowledging the truth that you were mistaken in some points: that these holidays are Christian and that atheists are hypocrites for celebrating these holidays.
You can say you disagree with me because you disagree, but you made some definite claims which need more than a mere "I disagree" to stay valid.
I am the one who has overwhelming evidence. Historical evidence, even if it proves you wrong, is still historical evidence. These are not Christian holidays. These are pagan holidays.
The truth is that if you are a Christian, you add Christian rituals into these holidays. If you are not, you don't.
Christianity did not invent these holidays, and Christianity does not own them.
It would raise my respect for you a lot higher if you can just concede that you were wrong on those points. If you can't admit it, I don't think you can justifably consider yourself honest and meek as Jesus Christ would want you to be. And that, my friend, is hypocrisy.
Citizen Press Revolution
I'm not denying that SOME of the Christian holidays came from Pagan ones because you did inform me of that, and previously I was unaware of that. However, I don't agree that they aren't Christian. Times change and now they are Christian. And nobody told me why it is that Jews, Muslims, etc don't celebrate Christmas and Easter, if they're purely Pagan holidays. Why do athiests celebrate them, yet people of other religions don't. Just like I don't celebrate Kwaanza, Hanukah, Yom Kippor, etc. As an athiest do you feel like you should celebrate any of these holidays? If I was an athiest I would want to make up my own holidays for my religion. Most religions have holidays specific to them, but as far as I know, athiests don't. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I would think that if I told someone I was celebrating Easter on Sunday, they would assume that I'm not an athiest.
You are using circular logic. Hannukah, Yom Kippur, etc all are holidays where Christianity has not (yet) tried to super-impose their own beliefs and ideas into the holidays. But, this is exactly what happened with X-mas and Easter. Imagine if Christianity decided to put some Christian celebration into Hannukah and continued to do so for hundreds of years. Does this mean that Hannukah would become Christian and that the non-Christian people who practiced the traditions of Hannukah would become hypocrites for not believing in Christ?
Of course not.
Well, this is the same deal with X-mas and Easter - instead of a Jewish holiday, however, they are pagan holidays.
Citizen Press Revolution
Why are you athiests not celebrating those holidays. Or are you? Are you celebrating Jewish, Muslim, and other holidays? Or are you telling me that it is only Christians who supposedly "stole" holidays but every other religion/culture's holidays are 100% their own. How do you choose whether to celebrate Hanukah or Christmas? You don't believe in either. It seems like you just want the fun of the holidays - presents, time with family and whatnot.
They would probably celebrate holidays that their families indulged in. This is a display of respect and affection towards their family members--a way of saying, "I love you so much I will go through the motions in order to spend more time and feel closer to you."
Again, you don't respond to the heart of what I wrote. Please, deal with the heart of what I write. The more you avoid it, the more and more it appears like you simply don't like being proven wrong and are too proudful and un-Christlike in being unable to show humility.
I will simply have to infer into your sidetracking comments that thus you admit that these holidays are not Christian monopolies since your questions only seem to imply this newly acquired stance. You admit that you are wrong in calling atheists hypocrites since these holidays actually are pagan traditions. And I don't think Christians necessarily stole these holidays, they don't own them, but some, such as yourself (once upon a time it would seem), mistakenly thought that these holidays were Christian property. This is the definite product of being in a closed world and having a closed perspective of reality.
Since you practice the pagan portions of these holidays, do you think you are worshipping pagan gods? I'd expect the answer is "No". Then, seriously, I doubt that atheists are celebrating these holidays with any pagan god worship in mind either. Furthermore, the modern evolution of these holidays has turned them into fairy tales for children and holidays devoted to giving, renewal of spring, enjoying family, etc for adults.
These holidays are for everyone who wants to celebrate them.
I am glad you agree.
Citizen Press Revolution
I still don't think athiests should take part in these holidays. I think that if I didn't believe in God, it would disgust me to take part in a holiday which is, in modern days, about Christ. The part I dislike the most about this is that it seems to me like the athiests only take part in the "fun" part of the holidays. I know that on the major holidays such as Christmas and Easter, most Christians go to Mass, which is not fun for most of them. But you just do the part about the familty time, Santa, presents, etc. As a Catholic, I have been preparing for 40 days of Lent for Easter. I have gone to Confession as my Easter duty, gone to Mass on Holy Thursday and Good Friday, as well as every Sunday, watched the Passion of the Christ, and gone to Stations of the Cross every Friday. But you don't do any of that. You just take the parts of the holidays that you like, and throw out the rest. Even if the origins are Pagan, that isn't what is widely accepted today. Today, people acknowledge that these holidays are, in fact, about Christ. What will you tell your children that Easter or Christmas is about?
Pagan aspects of the holiday ARE widely accepted and celebrated widely today. Ever go on easter egg hunts? Do you exchange presents at Christmas? Did you used to think that Santa Claus was coming? Do you see the Easter Bunny at the mall?
I have spelled your name on the blogs correctly each time, by the way. My name is spelled R-a-m-o-g-n-i-n-o. It is important to me. It is the name of some of my ancestors which I have made a point to remember in my life.
peppermintfrost, I do not think you have demonstrated an ability to think outside of yourself. This is pretty important, not just so you can understand people different than you, but so you can actually express sincere and full compassion for people different than you, such as Jesus Christ did.
Your life and your community's beliefs even is not demonstrative of everyone else's life. What you do for Christmas and Easter is not, in fact, what the majority of the American world does or thinks about for Christmas or Easter. Your inability to understand this is also a part explanation of your inability to understand the importance of not forcing one's views unto others through legislation, that this is anti-democratic in spirit and bone.
"Today, people acknowledge that these holidays are, in fact, about Christ."
Some people in your Christian world maybe, but I think you are making things out of thin air now.
Show me the proof, the studies, the massive conclusive papers from people from all spectrums (outside of the Christian world you live in) that say people today acknowledge these holidays are about Christ. You can't.
Because, peppermintfrost, it isn't true.
And if you try to push this again, you are being dishonest.
This is an absolute fabrication, peppermintfrost.
If you actually investigated into things instead of making blanket claims which you think should be (but aren't) true, you would find out, again, that you are very, very wrong. Would Jesus Christ want you to be dishonest? Does Jesus Christ need you to lie in order to save your face?
I really don't think so, peppermintfrost. I think you might be guilty of the sin of pride and vanity here. And pridefulness and vanity isn't justified because you love God. A true love of God, I believe, should make one humble and meek, as your biblical scriptures encourage.
I don't need to reply to your love of Jesus Christ and in fact, in many ways, I actually have. I pointed out again and again how your one hateful remark for people who think different than you contradicts your so-called testimony of love for "the Lord". Do you really envision the noble concept Christians have of Jesus Christ making the remarks against the other sheep and carrying the attitude you have for his own children? Do you think lying and fabricating evidence is something Jesus Christ, who you say you love, would want you to do? Your words are betraying your testimony to Jesus Christ. It takes more than the lip service and rituals you say you do. After all, one of the highest criticisms Jesus Christ had of the Pharisees is that they were all ritual and no heart. Doing all of those things are no evidence to your love for God.
As Jesus Christ replied when asked what were the most important commandment God gave to man, he replied first and foremost, to love God, and second, to love thy fellow man. These two commandments he gave in reply to that question is no mistake. It is not a coincidence. The biblical scriptures again say that when you love your fellow man, you love God. Consequently, peppermintfrost, you really ought to give a hard look at the sincerity and real depth of your convictions. If loving your fellow man is loving God, what then does hating thy fellow man mean about your love to God? When you hate your fellow man and despise them, you are also hating your God and despising God.
Now, again, you are not really listening.
When my children are young, I will tell them the true story about St. Nicholas to explain Santa Claus. I will explain to them the real origins and symbolism of Christmas trees. I will tell them that many people celebrate Christmas in different ways and explain to them why. When they get older, I will tell them more and more details. And Easter, likewise. I will tell them the true stories about these holidays and why different people celebrate them.
And then, I will tell them why and how we celebrate these holidays, which will be markably different. I plan to have uncommercialized holidays, the gifts will not be bought, they will be celebrated with family gatherings, friends, good food, drinks. Christmas will be a special focus to serve mankind, help neighbors, volunteer work, and donations to certain charities.
peppermintfrost, these holidays were and are not Christian holidays. And people today do not acknowledge that they are, in fact, about Jesus Christ. And there is absolutely no conflict of interest in atheists celebrating these holidays. They are not hypocrites in any stretch of the word. You are mistaken about these holidays being Christian. And you are mistaken about atheists being hypocrites for celebrating these holidays.
Now, prove your testimony of your love of God, despite the mars you have done to it, and show humility, admit your wrongs, and apologize for being malicious to your fellow man.
Citizen Press Revolution
"Show me the proof, the studies, the massive conclusive papers from people from all spectrums (outside of the Christian world you live in) that say people today acknowledge these holidays are about Christ. You can't. "
-You're right, I don't have actual studies, but I know that in my town most people either celebrate the holidays fully or they don't at all. An athiest girl I know buys presents for people on holidays, but she never says "Merry Christmas" or anything. She always writes, "Happy holidays," since she feel like she shouldn't take part in them since she doesn't believe in what they entail.
" Does Jesus Christ need you to lie in order to save your face?"
-I'm not lying. Anything I say I do believe to be true.
" think you might be guilty of the sin of pride and vanity here. "
-Jesus also didn't judge people's sins. Am I sitting here telling you that you're going to Hell since you're an athiest? No.
" I pointed out again and again how your one hateful remark for people who think different than you contradicts your so-called testimony of love for "the Lord". "
-I said nothing hateful. Saying someone is acting hypocritically is not hating them. I don't hate anyone.
You have said in another post that Easter is just a celebration of Spring. If this were true, people of every religion would be celebrating it. But they aren't It's only Christians and athiests. I don't see any Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc celebrating Easter. So obviously all of those other religions must realize that it's a religious holiday. If they all thought it was just about spring and family time, wouldn't they all be celebrating too?
And I'm not apologizing for being malicious because I wasn't. If I said something like, I hate all you athiests, that would be malicious. But believing that your actions are hypocritical its not malicious. I don't have to agree with what you're doing.
People of every religion often treat their kids to chocolate bunnies and Easter egg hunts. This is a celebration of the event.
Actually, Jesus Christ did judge people's sins. How else could he call the Pharisees hypocrites? Sounds like a sin and sounds like judging.
You admitted you did a gross generalization again. You have admitted that this is what people say in your town, but, remember, your town is not representative of the world or America itself. Thank you, though, for admitting that you are wrong again.
I am sorry but calling someone a hypocrite is not normally deemed on as a nice thing to do, just as saying you are GOING TO HELL, is not a nice thing either.
You have given up on saying Christmas as Christian holiday it seems and that it is strictly for Christians to celebrate. I am glad that you have admitted you are wrong there as well.
As for Easter, I think you are making your typical mistake again, using your personal experience and environment as proof for rest of the world. Like caughtaglimpse quipped, Easter like Christmas, is a commercialized holiday nowadays (in the U.S.) First, do you actually know of any (personally) Jews, Hindus, Buddhists who have been raised in the U.S. that don't celebrate Easter? Because I know several people of different faiths, raised in the U.S., who celebrate Easter and the Easter Bunny. It all depends on how assimilated these people are into the United States culture and also the location those people are in the United States. If you are in Bible belt country, for example, the dominant population there will definitely make Easter to be theirs and theirs only, and it is more likely people of different faiths will feel excluded and like outsiders. In more open places, like San Franscisco, you will find people of different faiths celebrating Easter. Easter where I live isn't particularly popular (Salt Lake City, Utah), by the way. And yet I know people here who don't believe in Jesus Christ and have other beliefs celebrate Easter.
Citizen Press Revolution
"First, do you actually know of any (personally) Jews, Hindus, Buddhists who have been raised in the U.S. that don't celebrate Easter? "
-Yes, I do. i don't know any Hindus or Buddhists, but I do know many Jews and none of them celebrate Easter. And yes, they were born here. Instead of Easter, they just celebrate Passover, have a sedr dinner, and whatnot. Nothing about Easter of the Easter Bunny involved.
Again, you seem to express the idea that your personal experience in your small part of the world and America is representative of the rest of us. For after all, I also know people who are Jews and they have celebrated Easter with its eggs and chocolate bunnies.
So, at this point, since the only defense you had left was that there couldn't possibly be any Jews, Hindus, and Buddhists that celebrate Easter since you don't know of any is an invalid argument (since I know of those who do), and there is no other point to argue about that hasn't been conceded, this means, indeed, that Easter is not Christian property either. And anyone can celebrate it if they want to celebrate it.
With all these points now conceded, the original point that atheists are hypocrites for celebrating Easter or Holiday is now conceded: they are not hypocrites at all.
Citizen Press Revolution
You're contradicting yourself. You asked me, "First, do you actually know of any (personally) Jews, Hindus, Buddhists who have been raised in the U.S. that don't celebrate Easter?"
-So I answered.
Then you said, "Again, you seem to express the idea that your personal experience in your small part of the world and America is representative of the rest of us. "
-Well, I was just answering your question because no, I don't know Jews who celebrate Easter.
Its not a contradiction. You don't know of any Jews, but that is your personal experience. I am showing how your personal experiences are not universal, and thus not to be held as an arguable truth for everyone, as someone, like me, knows from personal experiences that contradict your personal experience being used as truth. None of the reasoning you have put forth stands as valid reasons why atheists would be hypocrites for celebrating Easter or X-mas. Your reasoning was largely based on ignorance (those holidays' celebrations are actually mostly pagan) and your personal experiences (which has been proven as why it cannot be used with any validity).
Once again, you are avoiding the main issue in your response, but that's okay, since I know it is just silent admission of fault and mistake on your end.
I am glad that your silence is saying that you were wrong in calling atheist hypocrites.
Citizen Press Revolution
I was just answering your question - I didn't say that just because no Jews I know celebrate Easter, that means none do. I don't understand why they would though. Christians (usually) don't celebrate Hannukah, Yom Kippor, etc; Jews don't (usually) celebrate Easter, Christmas, etc. That's just the way that it is. You're also only speaking from personal experience - since you know Jews who celebrate Easter, it's like you think that's the norm. But I definitely don't think it is.
And I still think most people realize that Easter is (in today's society) a Christian holiday. A chocolate Easter bunny that I was at WalMart said on the box something about having made candies for Christian holidays for the past 50 years. In the newspaper comics for CT, the majority of those which mentioned Easter showed something about either a priest/minister, church, Mass, or about the fact that Christ is risen. So maybe you don't think it's Christian, but it seems like the majority of people do.
A majority of comics I see about Easter have nothing to do with Christianity.
You just don't seem to grasp it: personal experiences do not denote universal truth or experience. You don't understand the example of me using a personal experience to refute your personal experience and the point that personal experience cannot be used as "evidence" for a universal truth as such.
Most of the comics I can recall from seeing are about chocolate bunnies and candy.
Moreover, the further point about personal experiences is that as a Christian you are apt to see things in a certain way. Are you really sure that a majority of comics demonstrate your point ot maybe its just that this is how you perceived it to be?
Moreover, you haven't even considered that the comic artists which you read are not demonstrative of whether or not the majority of the population perceives something or not. And this isn't even the real important matter: the question at hand is if non-Christians perceive Easter as a purely Christian holiday. This is the consensus you need from. And think about this, how many of those comic artists are Christian? So, does a Christian depicting their spin on a holiday depict what a majority of non-Christian people perceive a holiday to be? Of course not, it couldn't and it can't.
You need to think deeper than the surface level here. You need to push your perspective deeper than you normally do. Use analysis, use questions, use a critical mind to examine truth, not just your bias, first assumption, and first appearances.
Citizen Press Revolution
"You just don't seem to grasp it: personal experiences do not denote universal truth or experience."
-You also use your personal experiences to prove a point. You know Jews who celebrate Easter, and you've seen comics about Easter and not Christianity, so you make it seem like you think that's the norm. From my personal experiences, I disagree with you.
"Are you really sure that a majority of comics demonstrate your point ot maybe its just that this is how you perceived it to be?"
-Yes, of the comics I saw, one showed a picture of a minister talking to a family (Hi & Lois) with a church in the background. One was a man reading a passage from the Bible about Christ's resurrection. Then there were others with priests, some mentioned Christ. So no, it wasn't that I was just interpreting the cartoons to have a religious connotation.
"the question at hand is if non-Christians perceive Easter as a purely Christian holiday. "
-Exactly, but I don't think we'll ever agree on this matter.
peppermintfrost, you are turning your head in circles. You do not seem to understand the sentences that I am writing or you are ignoring quite a few of them. Perhaps what I am trying to explain to you in plain English is beyond the rigidness of your mind.
When I used my personal experience it was with the express and only purpose to show that personal experience cannot be used as evidence for something as universal as "a majority of people, I think, think Easter is a Christian holiday". Get that point through your mind. I've said it several times now. I don't like repeating something ad nauseam. If you ignore this again, you are afraid of meeting truth face to face. Personal experiences cannot be used as proof for a gross generalization of the viewpoints of a majority of people.
Hi & Lois is done by a Christian cartoonist, so of course he is likely to express Christian views of Easter. Just as non-Christians, if they make a cartoon about Easter, are unlikely to express Christian viewpoints of Easter but the Easter which they celebrate. I wrote this exact point. You didn't read it or you ignored it. I already saw you thinking this ahead of time and wrote a rebuttal already for it. Please stop seeing only what you want to see. It only makes you look either foolish or dishonest.
And you just don't get it, you can in no way dictate or understand that non-Christians perceive their celebrations of Easter as having nothing to do with any Christian belief because your mind is too rigid to look at things with a perception different than your own. You are too stuck in your own head that you do not even realize the foolishness of your stances in this argument.
Show me proof that a majority of non-Christians believe that Easter is a Christian holiday? If anything, your responses you have received to this post show that every non-Christian celebrates Easter without feeling that these are Christian holidays. Christians will see it as Christian holidays because they are Christian! This does not mean anything to non-Christians who understand that these holidays are not Christian and who celebrate these holidays with no Christian pretense whatsoever!
You do not want to agree because you must admit fault and show humility to do so.
This is your folly. And this folly only makes your testimony to Jesus Christ look ridicilious.
Citizen Press Revolution
Definition of "Easter":
A Christian feast commemorating the Resurrection of Jesus; celebrated on the Sunday following the first full moon after the vernal equinox.
And in previous posts you've written how Christianity has nothing to do with the Easter bunny, Easter eggs, etc. But eggs are related to Christianity. Christianity, the egg is associated with the rock tomb from which Christ emerged to begin His new life. Because the celebration of Easter is preceded by the 40 days of Lent, during which eggs and other dairy products are forbidden among Orthodox Christians, it is traditional to begin the Easter meal in Russia and eastern Europe by cutting up an egg that has been blessed and distributing it to each family member and guest.
The Easter lily grows from a bulb that is buried and is then "reborn," like Christ.
I'm just stating these things because you assume that every aspect of Easter has nothing to do with Christ; many aspects of it do though.
Shrove Tuesday is a time for confession and absolution, Ash Wednesday derives its name from the custom of marking the foreheads of penitents with ashes on that day, and Maundy Thursday (or Holy Thursday) developed from maunde, Christ's injunction to love one another and the day celebrates the Last Supper and the ceremony of the washing of the feet. Good Friday illustrates good in the sense of "holy; observed as a holy day" and may be the oldest Christian celebration, its name possibly a corruption of "God's Friday." Palm Sunday commemorates Jesus's triumphant entry into Jerusalem where he was covered with palms by the multitudes.
Now if you are athiest and celebrate Easter because of pre-Christian origins, do you celebrate Ash Wednesday, Holy Thursday, Good Friday, or Holy Saturday? I would assume not. If you do, then correct me. If you don't, though, these are all a part of the Easter holiday. So like I've said numerous times, you can't pick and choose which things you'll celebrate.
I know personal experiences can't be generalized...the only reason I even brought any of that up is because you originally asked me if I knew Jews who celebrated Easter. You asked the question, so don't get mad at my response.
The egg was adopted by Christians because it was already widely accepted as a component of spring celebrations.
You have short memory. You rhetorically, incorrectly, asked if I knew of any Buddhists, Hindus, or Jews that celebrate Easter -- you have been bringing in your personal experiences as universal proof from the beginning. I just dug deeper and deeper to show you what you were doing.
Furthermore, none of those things you mentioned really make any argument for your case. It is simply more proof that Christians super-imposed their beliefs unto an existing holiday. These are all things done after the fact and simply represent a campaign by Christians to annex a pagan holiday.
Eggs are a pagan symbol of fertility, along with the bunny.
And thankyou for giving me more proof that Easter is not a Christian holiday. Allof those holidays you mentioned provide a perfect contrast to why Easter isn't strictly a Christian holiday. Those holidays are not representative of attempts by Christians to annex existing pagan celebrations.
peppermintfrost, try as you might, you cannot make a valid argument to call atheists hypocrites for celebrating Easter.
While Christians have attempted to annex Christmas and Easter, they have ultimately failed and the greater majority of non-Christians which celebrate these holidays do so without any need to celebrate anything Christian at all, but very old traditions set thousands of years before Christianity. Furthermore, these traditions have since become commercialized and thus secularized from the Christian attempts to annex themin their hatred for pagan beliefs and celebrations which they could not stamp out by force -- so they attempted to subvert these celebrations the common people wouldn't give up.
Citizen Press Revolution
"These are all things done after the fact and simply represent a campaign by Christians to annex a pagan holiday."
-Things change. Does that mean we should still argue that they are whatever they used to be. Slavery used to be a norm in the U.S., so could someone make the argument that they can have a slave because that's how the country was run years ago? No, we accept new things. Easter being Christian is just the way it is in these days. And it isn't like it's only been this way for a few years - Easter has been Christian for thousands of years. At the time of the Constitution it was considered Christian, but you're trying to stretch your beliefs so far to when it wasn't Christian. Guess what? Now it is. This site is called progressive and many people stress changing things with the changing times. With this one case, though, you're saying that things should stay the way they were thousands of years ago.
"Eggs are a pagan symbol of fertility, along with the bunny."
-No, now eggs are a symbol of the rock of Jesus' tomb as well.
"All of those holidays you mentioned provide a perfect contrast to why Easter isn't strictly a Christian holiday. Those holidays are not representative of attempts by Christians to annex existing pagan celebrations."
-Um, explanation please? These holidays are all Christian.
Guess what, peppermint? If non-Christians do not view these holidays as Christian, no amount of "it is too!" is going to change the fact. This is your only argument's logic. It doesn't hold water.
The trend of these holidays, in fact, is becoming more and more secular. Otherwise, far right wing nuts wouldn't try wailing about any "war" on Christmas. Just because Christianity attempted to annex it, doesn't mean it was successful.
You might think that these holidays should only be celebrated by Christians, but that isn't reality.
The nature of the celebrations these holidays purport (Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny) can be practiced with or without any Christian perspective in mind. You cannot argue this fact. Genuine and true Christian holidays (which you mentioned in a previous argument) do not have this quality.
Christmas and Easter, however, do.
These traits cannot be refuted.
The holidays of Christmas and Easter by this nature can be celebrated without any Christianity involved.
This is why they are not Christian holidays.
Citizen Press Revolution
Santa Claus is Christian because his name comes from St. Nicholas. Easter is basically the most important Christian holiday because of Christ's resurrection.
You keep saying I'm not mentioning the "meat" of some of your comment, but you've just done exactly that. Do you have anything to say about the changing times? Even though the Christian holidays (some of them) started out from Pagan holidays, their meaning has changed. You basically ignored everything I posted before this comment.
I most certainly spoke to the changing times! I said that yes, Easter can be celebrated as a Christian holiday -- but NOT exclusively. Many celebrate a secular version of Easter, Jews celebrate Passover (same biblical implecations as Christians), Pagans celebrate the coming of spring. Christians DO NOT OWN EASTER! The Pagan meaning of the holiday hasn't changed if Pagans still celebrate it, their numbers are merely decreased from when the Christian element was added. You can't up and change the meaning of a celebration because it is no longer defined by the majority.
The whole point to this arguement is so you will concede that things actually occured before Christianity was popularized. You can't change history!
"Easter has been Christian for thousands of years."
- You are misleading here. If Jesus created Catholicism, the oldest Easter could be is 2000 years, you imply longer. In addition with a little research, you realise that Christianity was not the norm until around 300 AD -- the first celebrations of the Christian version of Easter and Christmans began around 200 AD. By that calcuation -- Christian Easter has only been around for 1200 years -- not quite thousands.
No one is claiming for things to stay the way they were thousands of years ago -- accept maybe Christians who take the bible literally. All we are saying is the origins of Easter (named for the Pagan god Eastre of fertility, hence eggs and bunnies) and Christmas are not exclusively Christian. I know Pagans who continue to celebrate the traditional purposes. If Pagans still celebrate these holidays as well, you cannot force change upon them.
"No, now eggs are the symbol of the rock of Jesus's tomb as well."
- Yes, the Christian authority around 200 AD decided to make Christian holidays coincide with Pagan ones -- to ease converting Pagans to Christianity. In doing so they tried to change the meaning of the eggs (not sure why bunnies got left out of the fun) -- So while, in Christianity the egg represents the tomb of Jesus, in the secular world it represents fertility. You can't usurp the meaning of a symbol because new meaning is attached.
I don't understand why you can't accept that Christmas and Easter originally were (and still continue to be alongside many other beliefs) Pagan holidays. No one is discrediting that in today's world they are also known Christian holidays. I am just trying to inform you of historical significance before you spout your religious tradition as the only way these holidays can be celebrated and claim all other non-Christian celebrations are hypocritical.
Stop arguing with fact. Easter is Christian to YOU and other CHRISTIANS.
"If Jesus created Catholicism, the oldest Easter could be is 2000 years, you imply longer."
-Oh, so now 2,000 isn't considered in the thousands? Fine, I'll put it this way: It has been around for hundreds and hundreds of years. Better? My point is just that Easter has been Christian for a very long time, yet you and Ramognino keep saying you'll believe in the Pagan rituals which were common so long ago. Progressive? Not quite.
"So while, in Christianity the egg represents the tomb of Jesus, in the secular world it represents fertility. You can't usurp the meaning of a symbol because new meaning is attached."
-I know that, but you guys were making it sound like the egg has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity, so I was just proving that it does. I know it started as a Pagan symbol.
"No one is discrediting that in today's world they are also known Christian holidays."
-Good, but I feel that Ramognino is trying to say that Easter is not Christian and has nothing to do with Christianity. If you're not saying that, great; but he is.
You forget the reason this argument started. You said atheists were hypocrites for celebrating "Christian" holidays. We are refuting your statement by informing you that the holiday was secular long before it was Christian. I personally have no qualms with you celebrating Easter or Christmas however you want -- that is your decision.
I never said I believe in the Pagan rituals, only that they came first (and are still celebrated today) thus celebrating such holidays without being Christian is not hypocritical.
Ramognino is saying that Easter is not EXCLUSIVELY Christian.
I'd educate my children when they come into existance of various facts of both religion and spirituality roots instead of a biased and ultimately one-sided opinion.
Christmas and Easter's roots belong to Pagan origins and as a means of conversion were uprooted to a ill-founded utopia form of Christianity. It's not a matter of being outlandishly ignorant to other's beliefs but at least be a bit more informed of where things come from before throwing that massive stamp of [Christ was Here] on Pagan roots.
-Stitch
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If insanity was defined by logical people, there is an imbalance of reason. Who is to explain the logistics of the sane if their reasonings are not infact insane to others?
You kepe saying I'm not responding to the heart of your posts, but you did the same thing. My entire post wasn't solely about holidays. It was about my love for Jesus Christ. You only focused on the part where I mentioned holidays, so don't think you're doing anything different from me. This post was intended to show people how much I love the Lord and trust in Him and how great He really is.
It's not at all about celebrating the "fun" holidays. Most atheists were once religious and most of them have religious families, so it's not like they decided to chose a fun holiday to celebrate, it just became part of their tradition. Like I said before, we aren't going to isolate ourselves during the few times we do get to spend with our whole families because we don't believe in God (even though these holidays aren't originally about God.)
Like Ramognino said, you should just admit that you are wrong. You were raised to believe that these holidays were Christian holiday's and now you refuse to say otherwise.
And, again like Ramognino said, you should answer his main points instead of trying to prove him wrong, because it won't happen, he has already proved you wrong.
That's fine if it's just part of the tradition, but I would think that the athiests' families (at least many of them) still go to Mass for Easter and Christmas and do some other religious things. SO then you're picking and choosing which part of the holidays you'll take part in. You choose the fun parts, with presents and family time.
Do you have you own opinions? You keep just saying to answer what Romognino said.
"Do you have you own opinions? You keep just saying to answer what Romognino said."
That probably means that caughtaglimpse agrees with what romognino has said.
Do you have your own opinions? You just keep spitting out what the Church has said.
Thank you. It is true. It seems like peppermint gets told what to believe. How about you think about these things on another level than the level that you have been taught?
Actually I share the same beliefs as Ramognino(in this case), so what he said is exactly what I would have said, I dont see the point in repeating it.
You keep saying that Christmas and Easter are about God these days, well they weren't in the begining, they evolved into traditions about God, and now they have evolved into celebrating time with your family and pretty much commercial holidays. So don't criticize what we are doing. To YOU Christmas is about God, to some Christmas is about family and tradition. We aren't criticizing you for your beliefs, so don't criticize us for our beliefs.
I don't attend mass with my family because that is truly hypocritical, unlike participating in the non-religious form of these holidays.
I do plan to attend my younger cousin's communion this weekend. I am atheist, but feel that I should still participate in this ceremony, for the familial experience in addition to celebrating his accomplishment. Is that hypocritical? You think instead I should push my entire family away because I don't believe in the book they do? That is nonsense!! I choose to not believe in God, not to ostrocize myself from those who do.
Because for me, these holidays are more about being with my family. Most of my family are Catholic and I am an atheist. I don't proclaim my beliefs and try to argue against their religion. I do not pray to god or exhalt these holidays as more than a day off from work. There is nothing hypocritical about sharing in someone's belief for the pleasure of being around them.
That is the exact situation I am in. Most of my family believe and I don't but I'm not going to isolate myself when these holidays are some of the only times I can see my family during the year.
Exactly.
Catholics aren't the only ones who have communion... but yes Jesus is such a huge part of my life too! I feel so grateful to have a relationship with him! He has done so much for me.
Well as far as I've learned Catholics are the only ones who have the Eucharist which literally become Jesus. I know Protestant religions also have communion, but it's usually just a symbol; not the actual blood and body.
It doesn't actually turn into Jesus. That would make you a cannibal. Do you really want that label? It's symbolism. It's meant for people taking it to feel closer to Jesus. It is no different than Protestant communion (except Catholics usually have better wine).
It is NOT cannibalism. Any Catholic priest, bishop, cardinal, etc will tell you that it IS Jesus Christ.
The blood and body have even been tested and they have a blood type. They ARE Jesus Christ literally and that is what makes Catholicism so special and different from other Christian religions.
Lol. I would love to see this article. Please tell me you found it somewhere other than the Christian Science Monitor. One religion is not more "special" than the other. The monotheist religions all worship the same basic deity in different ways.
Here's to hoping St. Peter gives you the bitchslap of justice at those pearly gates.
Catholicism is special because it was instituted by Jesus Himself. He elected the first pope, He started the sacrament of the Eucharist, etc.
"Here's to hoping St. Peter gives you the bitchslap of justice at those pearly gates." Wow, you're very kind.
I realize that you'll never believe this but I know about, and have witnessed, so many Eucharistic miracles. I am absolutely certain that it literally becomes Jesus Christ in body, blood, soul and divinity.
You should read up on the Catholic church when it was first instutionalized. Did you know you could BUY redemption? Little priests would sell little pieces of paper to peasants. There was extreme corruption. Not very God-like, I don't think.
Why do you keep focusing on Jesus? He's not the guy you should be flashing your boobies for. God's the one with the yams, isn't he? even if Jesus is part of the trinity, you should acknowledge the fact that he is a lower step. Besides, he doubted God. Oh noes! And he was quite unruly as a small child, which you would know if you waded outside the King James version of the Bible. And where is the Holy Ghost in all of this? Aren't you supposed to acknowledge him, too? And Mary? She popped the little bastard out, didn't she? Where's the love?
You're not either. But I've come to realize most z