I first read the bible, then learnt about the Holocaust, and my knowledge of the Jews culminated in learning that they had Israel back again. A story of well deserved triumph after tribulations, nay?
I have a sneaking suspicion that most westerners have been brought up with this mode of thinking, in this exact order, rooting for the Jews all the while. That is partly why the Arabic world does not embrace Western culture. We hold a pre-conceived notion in our minds concerning the righteousness of Israel's existence. Even after all the failed peace-treaties, the increasingly disturbed middle-east situations. The majority of us still believe, without really thinking about it, that the Palestinians should have just moved over for the Jews. We know this notion is irrational, but we support it. How does our support show? By being silent about the rights of Palestinians, by our lack of interest in criticizing the Israeli government's methods of eviction, exclusion, aggression.
Do we wonder why the Arabs seem a tad hostile? It would be hard to accept notions from a world that speaks of human rights and justice and yet allows/supports the exodus of and continual degradation of Palestinian lives. Can people with such a mindset be trusted to build up Iraq? Why should they care about the Iraqis at all?
West Bank Boys Dig a Living in Settler Trash :
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/world/middleeast/02westbank.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Review of book concerning the history of Israel's instatement:
http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/paper/hughesMat2.html
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something that every child in the Muslim countries grows up learning and watching--
all the kids of who were and are my friends in Pakistan, all of us learned history of every part of the world and especially Islamic history, the wars and conflicts
I had wished to write on this matter but since I admit I would be biased and take the Palestinian side---I refrain from writing anything
BUT i do not have any ill will toward any Israeli or jewish people, and I don't support many actions taken by the Palestinian side-- quite frankly I hate the government and people in power on both sides and I have never ever thought that suicide bombing and killing innocent civilians were the ways to go about resolving the conflict..
I was asked by my history teacher in HS if i thought that this would ever come to an end and both sides would be satisfied and i remember even back then I said I had no hope that it would be resolved
i hate being a pessimist but that's the conclusion i reached--both sides don't want to work hard and come to an agreement that can satisfy each one's demands
"Things have a life of their own. It's just a matter of waking up their souls."
--Gabriel García Márquez
http://www.progressiveu.org/231615-this-is-a-muslim-girls-plight
I do think that both sides on the conflcit are acting like the nation equivilant of whining babies. However, when Israels wa first created, it did not have all the land in israel/Palestine. It had more land, but less usable land. It got the rest of the land when it was attacked and was voctorious. So, initially, there was a Palestine.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
Don't forget that Isreal purchased much of the land that it had already rightfully won in fighting wars (wars it never started.)
The people who were there gladly sold their land, as it was pretty much useless.
A decade or two of construction and irrigation and tending and the land is pretty good now. So now they want it back.
The children are often lied do, told that Isreal kills muslim children and uses their blood to make bread, or steals organs and eyes from muslim children to sell on the black market. These are movies and 'documentaries' made and controlled by the groups like Hamas.
Day after Day, rockets are fired into Israel by Hamas in the Gaza area and by the Hezbollah across Israel's northern border. There is no outcry by anyone for this attack, except Israel which is ignored. When they finally strike back, they are condemned as evil occupiers and oppresive hateful people.
How long would we let Canada or Mexico bomb us before we fought back?
You are correct in that most people know very little of the actual history of Israel (both since a few thousand years BC and most recently since world war 2). Unfortunately, in this knowledge gap, propaganda has set in. Israel "Stole" the land, Israel "Displaced" the people who were there, etc.
Israel did none of this, people were paid for the land, they could have stayed, but they chose to leave. No other neighborhing country would take them in, so they sat, for decades, regretting their decision until the stories turned into "Israel STOLE it!" . . .
I agree with Jsaj when he says that 'initially, there was a Palestine'.
It is strange to say that people gladly sold their land since it was useless. The people in concern were not there to give their consent to sell their land after the Israeli's evacuated them.
The history of Israel's instatement began with the Zionist movement, which both used diplomatic pressure and land purchase in Palestine to further their goal (possibly the first nation that created their country with such a method). Imagine what you would feel if a large group of Arabs started to buy up land in Connecticut so they could create their own country in the United States of America. Of course the Palestinians started to refuse selling the Jews their land and became wary of any such purchase, so the Jews resorted to using 'middlemen' who bought the land without the owner knowing that the original purchaser was a Zionist.
It is true that Israel never started the wars, but it would be wrong to say that Israel didn't provoke the wars. Read 'The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World' and you'll get a clearer idea of what sort of principles Israel was built on.
"A Segregated Road in an Already Divided Land "
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/11/world/middleeast/11road.html
"Young Gazans Pay the Price of Israeli Security"
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/world/20070926_GAZA_FEATURE/index.h...
Wow, talk about misconstrual of words. Bottom line, Israel has done some questionable things, but it has the right to exist.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
right to exist, I'm not....I just made points, just like you, that BOTH sides are not guilt free...
"Things have a life of their own. It's just a matter of waking up their souls."
--Gabriel García Márquez
http://www.progressiveu.org/231615-this-is-a-muslim-girls-plight
one can not believe that only false/made up stories are told to Muslim children about the "devil" that Israel is--- come on , hatred and uglyness is spread on both ends of the spectrum....
not all Palestinians are suicide bombers and every palestinian does not support the massacre and killings that are done by Hamas and Hezbollah
also, people need to learn the reasons are often revenge--hatred that is borne in one person's heart because of one's family member/s being killed (on either sides)
"Things have a life of their own. It's just a matter of waking up their souls."
--Gabriel García Márquez
http://www.progressiveu.org/231615-this-is-a-muslim-girls-plight
well, I don't remember calling people suicide bombers in my post, but yes, there is alot of hatred on both sides.
However, I don't see much hatred in action on the Israeli side. I see rockets fired into Israel on a regular basis, I see Israeli soldiers kidnapped, I see car bombings against Israel.
Then, when Israel rises up to strike back, I see people screaming and wailing for peace. Until they reload. Then Israel is attacked again.
Over and over, Israel gives up land that they bought, each time met with more wailing and gnashing of teeth against Israel.
Israel has a right to exist and a right to self-defense against these attacks. Anyone who will not admit that should just come out on the side of the Iranian president and call for Israel to be 'pushed into the sea' (so that they are at least open and honest about their desires.)
There is plenty of hatred, or at the very least, overreactions on Israel's side. And, they haven't alway been the most careful or caring when it comes to civillian casualties.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
Israel tries as much as it can to reduce civilian casualties while effectively protecting its population. This is hard when the enemy hides behind its own women and children. If Israel had some magic weapon that could just kill terrorists and those who pose real threats, and not hurt any innocent bystanders, it would obviously use this to defend itself without hurting civilians.
If Hamas had such a weapon, ask yourself: would it do the same?
Tom
but that's just my own cynical opinion and i believe i am right to hold this sentiment
"Things have a life of their own. It's just a matter of waking up their souls."
--Gabriel García Márquez
http://www.progressiveu.org/231615-this-is-a-muslim-girls-plight
Sure, you can hold your own opinion. But liberal democracies aren't driven by the same motivations as religious extremists. That's a fact.
Tom
in any case--- I don't consider Israel as a liberal democracy
there you go, that's my own view and opinion on this matter :)
"Things have a life of their own. It's just a matter of waking up their souls."
--Gabriel García Márquez
http://www.progressiveu.org/231615-this-is-a-muslim-girls-plight
To lancekates and tomasitokc,
The actions and statements of Israel shows their motive clearly - they don't plan to give up any of their land and they don't desire Palestinian integration into an Israeli nation. Palestinians have the option either of evacuating the country or remaining as sub-citizens with less rights than real Israelis yet forced to accept arrests and government restrictions as though the government really represented them. Their attempts to create their own nation has been continuously rebutted by 'peace treaties' that are rarely fulfilled on the Israeli side. More anxious/extreme minorities in their population have conducted guerrilla warfare, or what we like to call terrorist attacks, against Israel. As a result, the whole of Palestinians should be labeled as 'terrorists'...?
The desire for peace is real among the Palestinian civilians, but people can start supporting extreme measures when they find that their livelihood is threatened to desperation. Nonetheless, it is not fair to compare the Israeli government (which is supposedly elected by their people) with Hamas, a group that espouses the questionably supported ideal of creating an Islamic Palestinian nation. Any voice of moderation from Palestinians would be drowned out in such a cacophony, especially since it is the Palestinian's desire to have their own country back and the only powerful group that 'seems to' have the ability to do it is Hamas, voices that are against Hamas would seem to be against reinstating their nation as well, so of course such would be rarely spoken of among the people.
I highly doubt that all Palestinians desire an Islamic nation. Since the death of Edward W. Said there has been a conspicuous silence in the West for the cause of Palestine. Said himself is a prime example of a deeply secular Palestinian who does not support violence as a means towards the resolvement of this problem.
OK, I don't know if you guys really understand my position. I am pro-peace. I support a state of Palestine alongside the State of Israel. However, you have to put things in perspective. Israel and the Palestinians - and the United States - tried very hard in the 1990s to come to an agreement with a peace process. Clinton spent many of his last days tirelessly working to get an agreement. At the last moment, when Israel proposed the best deal the Palestinians probably will ever get, Arafat rejected it. That was the death of the decade of negotiations, starting a whole new wave of violence.
A majority of Israelis, just like a majority of Palestinians, support a two-state solution. This is the only viable option. However, this must be done through negotiations. Israel can't just get up and leave. It did that in Gaza, and since then terrorist groups (not guerrillas, because they don't care about innocent people and don't aim at military outposts - they indiscriminately kill people) have been incessantly bombarding Israeli towns with Qassam rockets. Plus, Hamas has taken over, not making it any better for prospects of peace, nor for the Palestinians themselves. If Israel just left the West Bank today, said "screw it" and evacuated everyone, I'm sure something similar would occur (and the West Bank is so much bigger than Gaza, and rockets would be able to reach Tel Aviv and Israeli Jerusalem). The only way to arrive at peace is through peace negotiations and treaties. Period.
Tom
Thank you for clarifying your position. I get what you're saying.
I believe that whatever peace deal that's going to be written up, it's not going to ease Palestinian resentment because Israel is going to try to hold on to total control of Jerusalem and it is doubtful that designated territories for Palestine is going to get any bigger. What exactly would you consider the best deal that Palestinians are ever going to get, however? There is the case that Western media has continuously glorified these peace deals. Do we really understand the particulars? And the fact that if Israel is going to maintain a whole state, it's Palestine that's going to have to give up the bigger chunk? There is also the fact that over history, Israel has often renegaded on its deals for convenience, for their 'iron-wall' policy. Israel does have the upper hand, so it's not likely there'll be any party capable or willing to punish Israel if it doen't stick to the rules. How does that allow Palestinians to trust Israel?
In Clinton's last initiative (the month before his term ended), Israel agreed to the following:
"Put simply, the Clinton parameters would have produced an independent Palestinian state with 100 percent of Gaza, roughly 97 percent of the West Bank and an elevated train or highway to connect them. Jerusalem’s status would have been guided by the principle that what is currently Jewish will be Israeli and what is currently Arab will be Palestinian, meaning that Jewish Jerusalem — East and West — would be united, while Arab East Jerusalem would become the capital of the Palestinian state.
The Palestinian state would have been “nonmilitarized,” with internal security forces but no army and an international military presence led by the United States to prevent terrorist infiltration and smuggling. Palestinian refugees would have had the right of return to their state, but not to Israel, and a fund of $30 billion would have been created to compensate those refugees who chose not to exercise their right of return to the Palestinian state." - Dennis Ross, Middle East envoy under Clinton and American mediator of peace talks
Israel agreed to give up Arab parts of Jerusalem. It also agreed to give the Palestinians some of its own land (non-West Bank) to compensate for the small percentage of the West Bank it would annex.
You still have to keep things in perspective. You can't change the past. Israel is a state, and it will continue to be a state. The Palestinians have the lower hand because they have never had a state of their own. They have been offered one multiple times in the past, to no avail. Palestine will not be able to encompass more than Gaza and most of the West Bank (and part of Jerusalem) - the rest is, and will remain, a part of Israel.
Many of the times Israel "reneged on its deals" were when the Palestinians showed their unwillingness to talk and comply - and thus reneged themselves. Israel's government has the obligation to protect its citizens from terror. The Palestinian Authority (and the future government of Palestine) has the obligation to protect its people from dangerous incitement, as well as to prevent Palestinian terrorist groups from acting. Israel has tried and jailed the few cases of terrorists that have come from within its own midst. Palestine will have to do the same.
The US was tough with Israel in some cases during the Clinton years, and it will at times have to be so in any future peace process. But I've been to Israel and, believe me, a majority of people there would give up all of the occupied territories if they could be guaranteed peace. Many are totally opposed to "the Occupation", as it's known, and see no need for Israel to keep these territories in the long run. They are just afraid - as any sensible person would be - that if they just give up all of this land, it's going to dramatically impact their safety. They've seen what happened in Gaza, and many people know that the only way, once again, is through dialogue.
Take a look at this, from Israeli columnist Yossi Lapid:
"While it may be true that the humane thing is to remove the roadblocks and checkpoints, to stop the occupation immediately, to enable the Palestinians freedom of movement in the territories, to tear down the bloody inhumane wall, to promise them the basic rights ensured to every individual. It’s just that I will end up paying for this with my life. Petty of me perhaps to dwell on this point. After all, how important is my life when compared to the chance for peace, justice and equal rights. But still, call me a weakling; call me thickheaded – I don’t want to die. "
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/1,7340,L-3411227,00.html
Tom
isn't it a bit naive and childish to think that the Palestinian should accept treaties designed by others....these treaties might meet some of their demands but in the end...why can't both sides say what they want...Actually, I don't think it's coming to a resolution in my lifetime and so be it...both sides have no trust in the other and quite frankly, neither would I
oh yeah, i'm this pessimistic and more...like the quote you have at the end, it shows me--- that it is easy for you to see things through the Isreali perspective and for me...I look at it through the Palestinian perspective.
Is there a middle ground...I wish there was, I don't feel that one has the more right to say things than the other...I keep thinking back to who was already there (whose home it was) and who were able to come there because of mandates made by powerful government and people in the 1900s...
anyway...what else can I say, I am only an observer who has friends that are of the Palestinian state.
"Things have a life of their own. It's just a matter of waking up their souls."
--Gabriel García Márquez
http://www.progressiveu.org/231615-this-is-a-muslim-girls-plight
I guess it is, as I said, a case of inequal interests. Such a good deal may not seem like enough, because what they had half a century ago was the whole of Palestine, now they can only have two strips of land separated by a foreign nation. Actually, I'm not doubting the fact that Israel will retain their land. I'm not a pessimist either to believe this issue cannot be resolved.
I'd like to also bring up another issue, then, if I may. A columnist once wrote (this is in Chinese, so I'm not going to cite the source) concerning the fact that he believed our government (Taiwan) should allot more money towards education than vote-winning retirement fees(giving you money because you're over 65) and military expenses (which mainly consists of buying weapons from you Americans). She said that education is an investment that gets quick payback: in twenty years or so you'll start seeing the results. Unfortunately, our politicians think more of reaping the benefits within their own terms rather than leaving a legacy.
I wonder, then , how Palestinian children are taught to think of the Israeli-Palestinian situation. Can we really blame people for thinking in the way they were raised in? If the Palestinian population's logic cannot match the reasoning of the Israeli population, who should be responsible?
How many years have gone by?
I did not say that anyone on this blog or the comments called all muslims as suicide bombers
I did say something about individual perspective and knowledge--each of us looks at the same thing and sees different things
I am against all acts of violence and terror, these are tools used by both sides
"Things have a life of their own. It's just a matter of waking up their souls."
--Gabriel García Márquez
http://www.progressiveu.org/231615-this-is-a-muslim-girls-plight