On troop support

I remember the recruiters when I was a kid; they were super intense! It was during the first Gulf War. They promised time and again there was no way I would ever see action. But there was no way they could possibly make that promise honestly. They obscured half the facts I needed to know before enlisting. Luckily, I had the good sense to read the enlistment contract. There's a lot of fine print that basically gives the recruiters to say anything they want to you; the form clearly states (in tiny typeface) that none of the promises will be honored. I don't think a lot of the kids who sign up have the good sense to look into the fine print. And I know they recruit more heavily in economically depressed areas that are isolated from other opportunities.

So while the troops certainly all volunteered, I don't think they all volunteered for what they are doing. Many were lied to. Once they are in, their options are obey, or face felony charges.

I don't support the war in any way, either, so it is difficult to decide if I am angry at those idiot kids who signed up without knowing what they're doing or not. There are so many buts and what-ifs involved when you start thinking about individual circumstances. All I know is, I want them home. It think that's my favorite slogan in protest of this war: "Support the Troops: Bring Them Home."

http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman

The problem that I'm having with your theory is that while the troops are there voluntarily, they are actually taking the consequences for their actions. They are also there for their own reasons, which may or may not be a support for the war itself. Many are also come from poverty and see the military as a means of going to and paying for college. They probably don't expect to see combat or even want to see it and they are probably just as anxious for an end to the war as the people safe at home are.

And what do you think would happen if no one signed up for the army? Do you think that wars in general would stop? The troops are fighting the war, but they're not causing them. I believe that there can be good reasons for joining up that don't include being thrown into an unjust combat.

Nevertheless, the biggest difference I see between the troops and those who send them is consequences. The men and women overseas are fighting and dying for men and women at home that are looking for political or economic gain. As ediblewoman said: we should support them by working to bring them home.
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Honest disagreement is often a good sign of progress. --Mahatma Gandhi

My Blog: http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/kablock
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Interesting. While I see where you're coming from, I'm not necessarily sure I can agree with you either. As ediblewoman and Kablock mentioned in their comments, there are other factors that should be considered as part of the whole. While they may have willingly signed up, I'm not willing to revoke support when I'm not fully aware of what the reasons for doing so were. It's hard, for me, to be unsympathetic and non-supportive to/of someone who is convinced by circumstance and a smooth talking recruit that military is their only way out of a poor situation. And then there are people like my friend's husband who said multiple times when he learned he was being sent back with the surge that he'd rather it be him fighting a war he didn't agree with than for it to be some kid fighting a war they were promised they'd never see if they just agreed to sign the papers. People that willingly put themselves in that position in order to keep those unprepared safe are, in my book, certainly deserving of respect and support.

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"If I fall asleep with a pen in my hand, don't remove it - I might be writing in my dreams."- Pace
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Great Subject that you have going on here. I just wanted to stop by and let you know that I think its great that people are talking about this and letting their feelings be known. I however can't comment on this one because the way I feel is going to be on a whole different level since my sister was killed in Iraq 1 year ago. I will however continue to keep reading to see what people have to say...

Kudos to you.

~*Run your fingers through my soul. For once, just once, feel exactly what I feel, believe what I believe, perceive as I perceive, look, experience, examine, and for once; just once, understand*~

Let me apologize for the length of this before I even begin. With that being said...I am sick of people blaming recruiters for our next generation of heroes joining the Armed Forces.
Background: 35 year old Army CPT, married, 3 children, 15 years of service, ENLISTED in 1991 for 5 years and extended 1, Green to Gold Scholarship receiving commission in Dec 2000, 3 combat deployments, 1 to Somalia, 2 (including current) to Afghanistan, commanded a recruiting company in Indiana with some of the finest NCOs I have had the pleasure of serving with.
Now context: when I signed up in 1990, my recruiter did not lie, cheat, steal, or strong-arm me into joining. In fact, he was an infantryman who stated quite simply that there was every chance I would ship off to Desert Storm and if I were to stay in for 20 years, I would see combat. And you know what; I was recruited out of a white, middle class, neighborhood. “What, you weren’t lied to?” That is correct, 100% honest and upfront. I went in and sat down with the guidance counselor (who these days are almost entirely civilian) and they pulled up my jobs that I was eligible for. I PICKED MY JOB and was then told (in other words I did not have to read any fine print) that any promises stated by my recruiter were not valid and that they military would GUARANTEE ME (yes, the guaranteed me) only my job, GI Bill, and Airborne School (had I picked another job they would have said up to the following: Army College Fund, Ranger School, Language School, bonus money, station of choice, etc.). Remember, this was in 1990, prior to the internet where facts were nowhere as easily verified.
Fast forward to my command: I had 50 recruiters that reported to me, and covered the following types of areas:
1. Primarily lower income, heavily minority populated, mostly black
2. Country/Rural, primarily white
3. College area, mixed racially, mixed income from lower middle to upper middle
4. Upper middle class, avg $100k + annual income, primarily white
Any guess where most of our recruits came from? Upper middle class. Want to know why…First, in order to join the Army, you must have either a high school diploma or a GED, be able to pass the ASVAB, military physical, and the background check (only 33% of the nation can actually qualify, in other words, we turn away about 3 to 1 (no kidding, turn away)). The cut and dry is that the lower income areas overwhelmingly do not qualify (either because of moral qualifications or because of inability to pass the test). Second we spend most of our time focusing on other markets and areas. Why, see first reason. Third, minorities have, by in large, bought into this TOTALLY fictitious view that they are targeted and sent to the front line, again YOU PICK YOUR JOB!!!
Next, most of the recruiters who are out there, hate their job, and are only there for 3 years, when they get released and get to go back to their job. Why do they hate their job. Several reasons, but one of the biggest is having to deal with people constantly saying things like, “My son will never be a killer,” “I hope you are shot and killed” (yes I have personally heard this from a mother whose son wanted to join, who after he graduated from basic apologized for her comments realizing the changes she had seen in him), and the always popular and one of my favorite, “Go F*** yourself!” On top of this, there is incredible pressure to find young people to join the Army, and with only 33% being eligible, they spend a large amount of time wasting time on people that are just plain and simply ineligible. Then, they turn on the TV and see the bottom 1% that makes the rest of the Army look bad; unprofessional, and undisciplined. These people do not represent the core of the Army Non-Commissioned core, unless of course you would like to say that Ted Bundy represents the core of all civilians.
And as I have said, most of these NCOs will be heading back into the Big Army and will undoubtedly see their recruits, likely in their unit (since I left recruiting 8 months ago, I have seen 3 in my unit). To a Soldier, their honor is everything, and for the overwhelming majority, is above reproach. Would they want some Private that they put in the Army telling everyone in the unit that they have an NCO with no integrity, I think not.
During my 2.5 years in recruiting, I had probably a dozen complaints (of which two I SUBSTANTIATED and the individuals were severely reprimanded, lost rank, and were fired), yet in comparison I had over 100 people thank me for what my recruiters were doing, for telling their children the truth, for helping them after school, for keeping them out of trouble, for doing nothing more than caring for them; often times being a surrogate parent. Understand that these were not just the friends and family of kids that enlisted, but from those that could not or would not enlist.
(Almost done, I promise)
In a direct comment to Tatvadnyani, I agree with you in your statement about not supporting our troops. It is difficult to justify one without the other. Primarily because, as you say, we willing take up arms against another human. We are responsible for our actions (which in today’s world, finding some to be responsible for their actions is a definite rarity). It is the Soldier who bears that burden, not you who chooses not to support him. This is not sarcasm or a guilt trip. I applaud your honesty and core values. I completely disagree with them, and find them simplistic and academia (without real world experience), but support your values.
Finally, my personal perspective. I have chosen this life, whether you agree with the war or not, I and my brothers and sisters in uniform have taken a solemn and in our view sacred vow to uphold certain principles. There is not one person who is in the Armed Forces today that has not had the opportunity to get out or has joined since the war started. Period. They have chosen to either join or reenlist on their own. No one has forced this. Therefore, do not use my sacrifice as your anti-war banner. There are several intelligently defendable positions for getting out of the war, my service is not one of them.
Twice since I have had children I have had to kiss and leave them for combat. It is them, not you, who bear the burden of my decision. You have no right to try to be part of that. So, given what I have to lose, why do I risk it? Because I have seen the results of tyranny, and oppression, and of torture. I KNOW, first had, what happens when people sit by and do nothing as bad people take over a nation. I do not have to watch from in front of the TV, listening to a filtered view of what the rest of the world is like. Because of this, words like Freedom and Honor are not simply expressions, they are tangible things that I can touch and taste. When I stand at attention and present honors to the flag during the anthem, I tear up. Why? Because I understand what our nation stands for. I understand the sacrifice that I, and my brothers and sisters, past, present, and future, have made. I understand what most cannot, because they have never stood in my shoes, and seen the world for what it really is. That the world is full of leaders who are just as sociopathic and evil as Hitler or Jeffrey Dahmer. They sit back and say, not me, it is dangerous; THERE IS NOTHING OUT THERE WORTH DYING FOR. To them, I feel not anger or disgust, but sadness for their ignorance and inability to understand what true selfless service is.
Sorry again for the length, and please understand that this is not an attack. It is simply the truth from someone who is sick of being lumped into a group that comprises 1% of the professional men and women that make up the MOST TRUSTED AND RESPECTED ORGANIZATION in the world!

:idk: I have to strongly disagree with the reasoning that you have behind not supporting the troops. I am a military child, but in no way does that force me to suport them, but over these past few years on my own I have come to love each and every one of the men and women fighting over there. I remember sitting in my fifth grade class having a great day. Next thing you know out of no where the school is completely on lock down and both the buses and parents have been forbidden from picking up there children. Those terrorist violated our countries sense of security and for what, because we support freedom and that posed a threat to their beliefs? Ever sense that day I lose my dad for a period of time and I never know if he is going to return. Luckly for me he has ever time, but there are those families out there who have lost their soldier. So don't sit there tell me that we don't have our right to defend ourselves and prevent another occassion like this. I don't believe in the war presay, but I do believe in a presense there! Rather you believe it or not the troops don't sign up just out of dismay for the other countries, but because they have great pride in their country and do like to defend it. Just because the men and women of the US Military show a presence over seas because that is what they have been told to do doesn't automatically mean that they don't like Iraqis nor does it mean that they believe in the war. What they do takes a great amount of courage and its people like you who frustrate me because they just assume that the men and women fighting in the war automatically want to participate in "hurting" the Iraqis....Its not about that...its about protecting their families and actually trying to help the Iraqis...there are those Iraqis who support their presence. So you should have a bit of respect because they fear just as much as the Iraqis...AND FOR PEOPLE IN MY POSITION...YOU DON'T THINK ITS HARD TO LOSE A PARENT TO MAYBE A LOST CAUSE BECAUSE THEY DON'T ALL WANT HELP OR BECAUSE THEY THINK WE ARE OUT TO GET THEM???????