I was watching the news last night and I heard a few of the presidential candidates' views on Gay rights. I wasn't really astonished with what I saw. The candidates are trying to rally voters. A good portion of the voters are conservative people who go to church and read their Bible. I understand that many people think being in a same sex relationship is a sin. I disagree. Our founding fathers came to this country because they were being persecuted for their beliefs, how they lived their lives, and how they brought their children up. How can people be so self righteous that they believe their way of thinking and believing is the ONLY way, the RIGHT way? Where do we get the right to say how someone else has to live their lives? Why do we persecute people because they have a different life style? I personally am all for gay rights. I believe it says in the Constitution that EVERY one has the same basic rights. I don't understand why we think as a country that Gay marriage, adoption, or any of the sort is destroying our family structures. I think it is strengthening our family structures. Some one give me proof of some kind that being gay is bad. If you can talk the talk have something to back it up.
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Most people feel that marriage is a religious institution, so since it says in the bible that "one must not lie with a man as he would with a woman" http://cf.blb.org/Bible.cfm?b=Lev&c=18&v=22&t=KJV#22 people don't want gays to have any rights.
And "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them. " http://cf.blb.org/Bible.cfm?b=Lev&c=20&v=13&t=KJV#13
Normally, I'd clean up the links, but I'm sick.
Nicholas Aden
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...our Constitution precludes the idea that the bible can be used as a guide for what should or should not be legal in the United States. In a country whose laws respect religious freedom, "because the bible says so" is not a relevant argument.
percivale
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Perci, you know I love gay people. Without them, I'd look unfashionable. :-P
But, unfortunately, in a nation made up of of a majority of Christians (Protestant or Catholic, doesn't really matter), the Bible is something that we have to deal with, whether it's right or not.
Nicholas Aden
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The whole POINT of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States is to make sure that we DON'T have to deal with people who can't keep their religious beliefs to themselves. I mean, what part of "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" is really so hard to understand?
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"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." ~ Benjamin Franklin
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So, congress makes no law. Now, why am I constantly judged by people with religious views? Should that not be illegal, resulting in a million dollar fine? Why do we even allow churches, for that matter, that preach that "sinners" are all going to hell? Why do churches get special tax treatment? Why is religion part of the presidential race? Why did most Americans blame Islam (a religion) for 9/11 and not just Osama? Why is it that many of the states in the union were formed as a religious state? While I think you're right, I think the point is just that the government cannot implement any rules stating that there is one religion, and that religion is X.
And remember, just because you cannot be oppressed by the GOVERNMENT doesn't mean that you can't be oppressed by the individual.
Nicholas Aden
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Probably because you put yourself in positions where religious people have power over you, and then you (for some reason) give a hoot about what they think of you.
No, it shouldn't be illegal for people to judge you, because we live in a country founded (in part) on religious freedom. You don't have a right not to be judged, but you DO have a right to keep other folks from using the police power of the government as a tool to act out religiously-based judgments against you.
Because freedom is a two-way street, with room for more than just one point-of-view.
Because the impenetrable wall of separation that keeps religion out of government, also keeps government out of religion.
Those are both good questions, and I think the easiest answer is that there are a lot of people in this country, religious and otherwise, who are willing to use their religion (or lack thereof) as an excuse to further their personal goals and prejudices.
Because most of the States that you're referring to were formed before our Constitution made such acts illegal.
The government is supposed to STAY OUT of religion altogether, just as religion is supposed to STAY OUT of the government. In the words of another famous founding father...
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." ~ Thomas Jefferson
I don't care about people's religious beliefs, so long as those beliefs do not compel them to break the law by trying to FORCE them onto ME.
The government has been given the power to use PHYSICAL FORCE to accomplish its ends...and as such it must be held to a very strict standard to ensure that that force is used sparingly and appropriately, in accordance with our laws. If someone wishes to "oppress" me on an individual level, well...all I can say to them is "take your best shot."
percivale
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
While I completely agree that Religion and Government should not and cannot be mixed, it's factual to say that they are. People judge candidates based on their religion as a determination of morality. Don't ask me why, it's just that atheists are considered to be less trustworthy than Gays. I think that makes you double fucked, Perci.
Nicholas Aden
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Are you suggesting that because people break the laws, we shouldn't bother to enforce those laws when we catch them at it?
And, they have a right to consider the religion and "morality" of a candidate when they vote for them. The First Amendment limits the actions of government, not the opinions of individual citizens. However, once that candidate is elected, he or she has a legal obligation to represent ALL citizens equally, and to act in accordance with the law, even if doing so contradicts their personal religious beliefs.
Are you flirting with me?
percivale
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
Not really. Merely making an observation.
Nicholas Aden
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People will never stop judging eachother. Does it suck? You bet. Is there anything we can do about it? Nothing at all. All we can do is hope that some people will be decent enough to keep their more offensive, fanatical opinions to themselves. While I have never been a very religious person, I do believe that religion and politics should not mix. It's like trying to combine water and oil: it accomplishes nothing and only serves to cause a big mess. Sure, you could say that America is a majorly Christian nation and so on, but does that mean we completely undermine every other belief system, be it Islam, Judaism or Atheism? Combining religion with politics would not bring the country together, but deepen the rifts between religious groups that have already been separated by those who believe their way is "the right way" and everyone else is going to hell. Which, of course, is a decision that no man, woman, or religious establishment has the right to make. Who are we to say what beliefs are true and who is "allowed" into heaven?