This post started out as a response to a post about teen sex.
I'm glad to hear that you don't condemn people who lose their virginity early - however, I think you should also realize that some people who have sex young do so responsibly. I know several girls who began having sex at ages 12-14 with boys in their age group who they liked and trusted, who treated them with care and respect. They were quite mature and educated (in fact, far more mature than many adults I know - people really underestimate kids, if a kid is raised in an intelligent and supportive environment and encouraged to think for himself and to learn, he can be just as mature as an adult when he is quite young) and they were safe about their sexual activities, both physically and emotionally. I see nothing wrong with kids of ANY age experimenting together sexually or even being in a sexual relationship, as long as they are emotionally prepared for it and are safe about it.
Unfortunately, due to lack of education and due (in my opinion, at least - will be blogging more about this) to sexism and lack of children's rights, most kids are not emotionally prepared for sex. In fact, most adults in this society aren't, either, as you can see by the huge number of sexually unsatisfied people, of unhappy marriages, of cheating, of rape, of promiscuity, etc.
Personally... I lost my virginity when I was 15, due to rape. As a result of several incidents of rape and abuse (the first occuring when I was 9), I became promiscuous (not by acting slutty, but by taking risks and by giving in to any man - usually far older men - who wanted me) in order to hurt myself. I would say the first time I had sex when I WANTED to have sex was when I was almost 17, with my boyfriend. He had been my best friend for three years before we became lovers. I wanted to have sex with him because I loved him and trusted him and felt that if I could learn to see sex as a positive experience with someone who would not hurt me, maybe I could stop hurting myself through sex.
We ended up being in a very serious relationship for the next year and half (we are still friends now), a relationship that completely turned my life around and completely changed my views on sex - instead of seeing it as a hurtful thing, I saw it as a precious gift to be shared with someone I love. My views on it are a bit controversial because I don't think sex is necessarily only a gift to be shared with one romantic partner - although I'm celibate and single by choice now, I could see myself in the future having a sexual relationship with someone who was not a boyfriend/girlfriend, but a close non-romantic friend. Sex is an amazing thing when done properly (i.e., well, and between people who are totally consenting and totally prepared for it) - it's a way of giving yourself and your lover pleasure, it's a way of giving you both physical and emotional release, it's a way of unwinding and relieving stress, it's a way of sharing yourself with your lover and knowing your lover intimately, etc. So why restrict it to a romantic partner?
My point is, sex isn't somehow bad for anyone, including kids. It's only bad when used improperly (i.e., with force or coercion, with someone who is not mature enough, if it's done unsafely, etc). If some 12-year-old wants to have sex with her boyfriend... why not, as long as they both want to, they're safe about it, she's mature enough, and they enjoy it? The only reason it's harmful is because of sexism (did you know that studies show that 70% of girls who had sex when they were younger than 16 say they didn't want to - they just did it because of pressure from friends or their boyfriend, or even because of outright manipulation or even force?), discrimination against children (children aren't listened to, aren't respected, their rights aren't protected - a "well-behaved" child is one that is polite, quiet, and above all, obedient, rather than strong and smart and free-thinking), and a severe lack of education.
Abstinence education isn't working. Depriving kids of sex education and birth control only leads them to having unsafe sex. Rates of pressure and coercion into sex are sky-high for young girls, mostly because they aren't taught their rights and can thus easily be manipulated into believing dangerous things regarding sex and consent. The solution isn't to demonize sex or to judge people who have sex at a young age, it's to educate kids so they can make responsible decisions about possible sexual activiites.
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I see where you're going with this, and I agree - to a certain point.
Yeah, some people are emotionally ready to have sex and a young age, and I don't see anything wrong with that. What I find to be wrong about having sex at a younger age, though, is that many kids are still developing and intercourse can cause physical damage (even if in just some slight way) as well when one isn't quite through developing.
I think part of my problem/experience is that at my school all of these underclassmen girls, ages anywhere from 13 to 15, seem to have no respect for themselves. I remember quite distinctly one freshman in my French class last year was so nervous because her boyfriend wanted her to give him a blowjob in the bathroom one day after school. This year she just lets it all hang out, quite a change from the sweet, shy girl I knew last year.
I mean, it's good that she isn't shy anymore, but not in the way that she's doing it. If that makes any sense.
I'm glad my post made sense to you ^__^
It's terrible to see that you went through such difficult times at such a young age, but inspiring that you've totally turned the situation around for yourself. Young children definitely need more access to the RIGHT information about sex, not the gossip they hear from friends. However, I still think that twelve is far too young to be in a sexual relationship.
1) No 12-year-old is emotionally capable of the consequences of sex; most can barely wrap themselves around the idea of taking vitamins and brushing their teeth every day. How can one be expected to remember to take their pill at the same time daily? What about the physical effects of the birth control on someone so young?
2) I don't know any 12-year-olds capable of financially supporting themselves, much less a child or an abortion.
3) Society should not have the burden of caring for these children participating in adult activities, including supporting their children and/or paying for their sexual health care.
To even suggest sex is "ok" for a 12-year-old to do just because it's enjoyable... blows my mind.
http://www.progressiveu.org/031426-fiscally-responsible-sex
I would be very leery of a twelve-year-old having sex in Western society... but it's not all that uncommon and the only thing really wrong with it is that generally those kids aren't ready due to lack of education, etc.
However, if a child of 12 did want to engage in sexual activity (not necessarily intercourse!), and did understand the consequences, and took all the precautions necessary.... what's so terrible about it? Sexual play and experimentation is not an adult thing, it's never been, and the only reason kids are so fucked up about it now is because society makes a big deal out of it and doesn't provide the information kids really need.
I agree it's ok to be open about sex with your children (and you should be); but keep them away from perversion or bawdiness. The other thought is that it's very easy for things to escalate from "play" to intercourse, and 12-year-olds are going to be even less capable of self-control than adults.
What do you define as "perversion" and "bawdiness"? Sexual activities are not perverted or bawdy unless they are done without concern and respect for others.
Indeed it is easy for things to escalate. But how would you solve that? Tell kids, "No, you can't engage in normal and healthy experimentation because it might lead you to sex"? I personally don't know any kid who's listen to that... most would get even more curious about it because it's taboo and forbidden. Don't forbid kids to have sex, definitely don't forbid them to engage in normal and healthy play... just make sure they have the information they need to make an informed decision. Western society underestimates children WAY too much. There's no reason why a 12-year-old cannot be very mature, thoughtful, open-minded, educated, self-confident, wise, etc. The only reason why most are not is because of the way society raises them - like inferiors, and without teaching them very important things they should know.
Meh... I think it's foolish to think a 12-year-old is able to make mature decisions about something as important as sex. There are consequences, and you seem to be forgetting that sex leads to pregnancy, which could potentially kill a 12-year-old; not even to mention STDs. You can teach your children; be honest and open with them, but in my opinion it's damn stupid to leave them alone with some other kid long enough to let them experiment sexually at that age. I have every intention of allowing my children to have their childhood and keep their innocence as long as possible; there is time enough for sex when they actually have hips and experience in the real world.
And... my definition of perversion/bawdiness is the same as yours.
I can only speak from my experience here, but I know that at 15, I was WAY too young. I wasn't ready, I didn't understand the emotional implications, and I wish I hadn't done it. But I was desperate to prove myself straight.
Hindsight is always 20/20, I guess.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
Ah, but why did you end up having sex? Not because people were all, "Oh, there's nothing wrong with having sex" but because you didn't have the proper information you need (how to know if you're ready, how to choose your partner, GLBT issues, emotional safety, etc).
I'm not saying kids are ready for sex at 12 or 15 or whatever. On the other hand, if you include all sorts of sexual activity under "sex", some of those activities are very commonly practiced by 12-year-olds. And telling a kid he/she can't have sex because he/she is "too young" (basing it off a numerical figure alone, rather than the individual's maturity) is definitely not going to stop him/her.
It depends on the kid, I suppose, as does (or should, anyway) every parenting decision. Some kids might be scared into avoiding sexual activity when they are told they are "too young." Others, probably not.
In my case, though, I think having all the information available, and not growing up in such an anti-gay environment would have allowed me to wait and be more thoughtful about choosing a partner. Isn't it funny how many people believe the opposite? That exposing children to GLBT issues will make them MORE promiscuous?
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
At one point in my life I would have agreed with you, and yes I was one of those kids that was prepared and knew what to do. But in the end I have only hurt myself by having sex and I have learned so much from those experiences and now, because I want to, I am saving myself for the one man I will marry. I would not advise anyone to sleep around or have premarital sex, it hurts to much and I would hate to see anyone else get hurt. But in the end it is the individual's decision. And I agree that there is a TON of pressure from guys and friends to have sex. It is very unfair.
I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to sleep around... or to have sex at all, period. But I wouldn't condemn it, either, and I would give appropriate advice without saying, "That's wrong/bad, don't do it." Also, if kids were raised to be self-confident and knowledgeable about their own abilities, maturity, etc... most wouldn't have sex at a young age because they wouldn't want to. Studies show that most girls who had sex before age 16 actually didn't want to. If they had knowledge and self-confidence, they likely would've waited longer... or not, but they would've been prepared and not suffer emotional damage from it or such high rates of STDs, pregnancy, etc.
I think the main problem with what you are saying is that the 12 year olds( or whatever age) are hypotheticly ready for sexual experiance. I almost agree with you if not for my own feelings that i would hate to see my little sister lose her virginity so young. Basicly, from what i've gathered from what you've said, if the child behave like a virtual adult they are capable of commiting to a sexual relationship or action.
The problem is I have met barley a 16 year old capable of handling such a responsibility. So, hypotheticly, Iagree with you but when it comes down to it I don't believe there are enough young people out there ready for the responsibility that we should begin serious preperaton but i do believe that we need to educate much more.
Hell basicly all they tell you is one of you has a penis the other has a vagina (I wasn't educated about homosexual relationships at all come to think of it) and it's best not to let them touch till your married, so education could definatly use a boost. All education needs a boost.
Young people WOULD be prepared and mature enough - not necessarily for sex, but also for saying no to unwanted activities or activities they knew they weren't ready for or could be dangerous - if society changed. Hence the point of my post. I do know quite a few people however who did begin having sex at quite a young age and suffered no ill harm because they were emotionally prepared and with a caring partner. Unfortunately, that's not the norm.... though it is the norm for 12-year-olds to do sexual things, even to have sex.
As you said though, it's hypothetical really. In this society it would be a disaster to suddenly make it acceptable for children to have sex. Hence why society needs to change, because, believe it or not, kids ARE sexual and they're going to be curious about sex and they're going to experiment, and you have to start educating them - not telling them to NOT do something because that just makes it more fascinating, but rather giving them the information they need to make healthy choices.
As much as I think that sex should be made much less of a taboo subject, I don't believe people should be having sex so young at all. Educated and informed, yes. I don't care how emotionally mature they feel or if they think they are choosing to have sex, but they are kids and biologically, their brains are not fully developed and aren't capable of making those kinds of life decisions. The part of the brain responsable for decision making and responsible thought doesn't develope until a much older age. Kids can let their emotions get the best of them, and sex is an adult activity, and should thus be saved for adults (not to say that I mean 25, but starting around 17 or up, depending).
Oh, I don't believe kids should be having sex that young either. But the fact remains that since the beginning of time children even younger than 12 have been experimenting and playing sexually with each other. It's a healthy and normal part of child sexuality and development. Forbidding kids from certain sexual activities will only make them more curious to try them. Also, some 12-year-olds are quite mature enough to be able to make the decision to have full sex... and some 20-year-olds aren't, so using chronological age to determine readyness for sex (referring here only, of course, to completely consensual, safe, and enjoyable sex between PEERS) seems foolish. Sex is a biological function, it shouldn't be such a big deal - if it wasn't, people would probably feel a lot more okay about NOT having sex if they felt they weren't ready to.
Oh, and sex (again, I'm not just talking about intercourse here) has never been just an adult activity. O.o
Damnit... I keep trying to remember the name of this book... grrrr I hate that.
Anyways; I once read a book in which there was a tribe of people (the book took place in a modern third-world country). The children of this tribe would often begin, and even be encouraged, to explore themselves sexually as young as they felt the desire. I remember one particular scene between a young man and woman... it was awkward... but anyway.
In this tribe, the people married very young. Part of why they permitted this behavior was because the interest in sex really only began right before marriage; so it would prepare them for what was to come and allow them to explore before they were forced to "settle down" and serve the tribe in more formal positions as adults.
Which brings me to my point...
I don't think these rules apply to us. We have the pleasure and ability to allow our children to have their childhoods, and I think we should take full advantage of this.
If I ever think of the title of this book... I'll post it. It was an interesting read.
The problem is, you're seeing sex as something that's somehow NOT a part of childhood, that somehow taints the innocence of childhood, etc. But sexual activity is normal and healthy (of course, if consensual and safe physically and emotionally) at ALL ages.
Sex is not a part of childhood. I do not believe that a 12-year-old should be experiencing sexual things alone with a member of the opposite sex. It's fine and natural to have sexual curiosity; but it's inappropriate to allow them to explore it. Their brains are not developed enough to make decisions to protect themselves, and chances are they will do something that they will regret for the rest of their lives. Therefore, I will make the decision for them until they are prepared and capable, and explain to them why this decision is the right one (focusing on the positive and not the negative), because that is my responsibility as a parent. But sometimes... you have to say NO and there is nothing wrong with that.
What about experiencing sexual things alone with a member of the same sex? Tons of my straight friends tell me that when they were young (like, between 9 and 13), they made out with their girlfriends at sleepovers. They seem to feel it was okay, because it was just "practicing" for boys. I never engaged in anything like that.
So, given your stance on sexual activity at a young age, I'm curious what you think about same-sex experimentation?
I'm not arguing any point here. Really just curious.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
I retain the same stance - supervised by adults. The reason why is that even if you can't get pregnant, you can still get lasting health effects from STDs, and these can be with you your entire life. That's not something I would want to see a child have the burden of dealing with.
I don't see anything wrong with kids holding hands or stealing kisses in group environments; where they are supervised by adults. It's more a question of protecting your children by making sure they know what's safe and what isn't - and then keeping them from being in an unsafe environment, so it's unlikely they would ever have to decide.
Why are you assuming this is about intercourse? It's about sexual activity, period. Children aren't very likely to spontaneously engage in sexual intercourse, particularly if they are properly educated and have a healthy idea of sexuality.
Holding hands and stealing kisses? Kids do far more than that by the time they're two or three. Do you really think kids are going to start kissing or experimenting in front of adults? The only way you'll find out is a) if you walk in on them, or b) if they're comfortable enough with you to TALK to you about it if they feel in the least bit uncomfortable or uncertain.
Exactly... so you don't give them an opportunity to BE alone so you "walk in on them" and "find out." By then it's already too late, and you've become the bad guy.
Sexual activity quickly leads to sexual intercourse - history, common sense, and personal experience tells us this. You believe yourself that kids "do far more than that by the time they're two or three." In addition, you do not have to have sex in order to get an STD. If we do not educate our children AND protect them from themselves/their peers, then who will?
I'm not talking about kids in the final years of high school here - I'm talking about your 12-year-olds for whom it's totally ok to be alone and essentially encouraged to have sex because it's "enjoyable" and "natural." It's not natural - or healthy - for 12-year-olds to have sex. Their bodies weren't meant to have babies at this age; their brains are incapable of handling the consequences,
Sex has been a part of childhood since there were children in the world. Whether or not you believe that's appropriate doesn't change the fact that kids start exploring their sexuality before they are even born.
Kids are perfectly capable of making decisions regarding some forms of sexual activity. Are you saying a three-year-old cannot consent to show his/her genitals to another three-year-old? Are you saying two preschoolers should be forbidden from normal, healthy exploration such as mutual masturbation and/or fondling? It's extremely common for children to experiment sexually with others, whether it's something like "playing doctor" or even having oral sex or attempting intercourse (more rare but certainly not uncommon). An experimental kiss between two children is no more harmful than affectionate, platonic contact like cuddling and hugs.
There are two sole reason why children are hurt by sexual contact with their peers imo:
1. People overreacting to it and saying that it's a huge decision, that they might make a decision they'll regret for the rest of their life, etc. It's really not a big deal if you don't make a big deal out of it. So some kid masturbated with his friend. omg, how horrible... not. Kids all over the world have been doing it forever.
2. Lack of education. Kids might attempt activities which might actually be dangerous to them, such as intercourse (though it's quite rare for young children to attempt such a thing), if they are not properly educated - not only about the emotional and physical dangers, but also practical things like, when do I know i'm ready for sex? How do I know my partner is ready? etc.
You cannot make the decision for them. You're not in control of your child've life, whether you believe it or not. Kids are going to continue doing what is natural for them to be doing - experimenting sexually - whether you allow them to or not. And I'm not saying I'd "allow" my children to experiment sexually. If I discovered my son or daughter was doing anything sexually, even very mild experimenting, I'd talk to them about it, and if I felt it was inappropriate, attempt to put a stop to. But telling kids that natural things are bad for them and that all sexual activity is dangerous and only for adults isn't going to do them any good.
Ok... so make up your mind... which is it?
We seem to agree on the open discussions... but you seem to be confused even with yourself on the good parenting. It's OK to say "No" and children who hear "No" when it's appropriate are healthier than those who do not.
You can control your child's life; as a parent, you have the responsibility to know who they their friends are, what they are doing, and where they are at all times. You are legally responsible for their actions, and therefore you need to control what they do and who they are spending time with. We are not talking about more mature and capable 17- and 18-year olds here; we're talking about kids who are have just entered high school and younger.
I agree that a certain age does not define sexual readiness.
The taboo and secretive way our society deals with sexuality is one of the most influential forms of ignorance left to overcome.
I like the idea of teaching kids everything about everything as fast as they can take it in. Doing this with regard to sex might not result in more 12 year olds being ready to experiment, but it seems to me that an awful lot more 30 year olds would be ready to be mature about it. The things you learn very early in life are often with you until you die.
If kids learn to be ashamed of their bodies, or that natural parts of living are 'dirty' they carry it with them for a long time.
I don't think that we should force values on people. Parents should be able to choose the way their own kids are raised. If we are all allowed to do it our own way then the most successful methods will eventually win, and the less worthy ones will only hurt a minority.
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
I was in 5th grade when a girl in my class wanted to me to act out romantic scenes from movies. She was a bully and we ended up fooling around. i had no information whatsoever about sex, and i think if i had been given that much information when i was a kid, i would be a little sick in the stomach. The idea of soem guy putting something that big inside tiny me would be a little weird. I however always have had a sexual appetite, ever since i was a kid. You could say I just dint have enough information to know what was really done. I have been slightly abused sexually by my teachers and it never caused any permanent damage.
I finally had sex when i was 18. I believe i was ready and could have had sex at the age of 15, but not before that. I do not think i was emotionally ready back then.
Kids lie. After a certain age they'll lie to cover their fears, use "whatever" a bit too much. But its not whatever. If a kid has fooled around and had sex , I do think they should be given enough information and acceptance that they dont feel that they're "dirty" or have done something terrible. Im 20 now and if my kid tells me he/she's had sex. I think my priority would be to make sure they dont feel used or are saddened emotionally in anyway.
Kids are different. just as all kids cant be expected to be brilliant at whatever they do. You cant make a general statement that , its ok to have young sex. Im 20 i still think i can do a lot of things sexually, or i can have random drunk hookups., but when it comes to it, I cant..not because I feel im being sluttish, but because havign sex is a big deal for me. I think parents should be wise enough to know their kids and know when their kid is ready. I would be scared if my 12 year old had a boyfrend and everyone in class was doing it, my kid would do it too, and what if he/she was just not ready. What if he was forced but it would be disguised as consenting sex. There are so many things that could go wrong.
I dont think i made my point well. I dont think you should judge sex. But I do think kids are vulnerable, even if they look like they're cool with everything, and sex is not like some extracurricular activity thats done after school that should be considered perfectly normal
Always jump in puddles...you're going to get splashed on anyways
I don't mean that kids SHOULD have sex... but that there's nothing wrong with sex unless it's used to hurt another person. Also, with more sex ed there'd be less pressuring into having sex because kids would know when they're ready and know to make sure that their partner is also ready.
You seem to keep forgetting two things:
1) Children are not adults.
2) Sex has consequences.
I believe the web is partly responsible for youngsters to have sex at a younger age, sadly enough the picture that is projected over the web is abusive in regard to women.
Youngsters (10 y olds) should receive a no nonsense sexual education in school.
Other than that I believe there is nothing wrong with kids having sex because it will open up their individual freedom.
Completely agreed. Did you know the average age kids see porn on the internet is 12? And think of your average porn on the internet... I bet most kids' first image of sex is some "stud" pounding a "slut" or two. And how are they supposed to know that isn't normal sexuality? I'm a peer counselor for teens and a HUGE amount of kids think sex is like porn - and plenty of these kids are quite bright, they just haven't had any other sort of exposure to sex so they don't know what it's "supposed" to be like.
People become so afraid of discussing with kids the subject of sex at all that it too often leads kids to having to find things out on their own - often to negative results, as in case mentioned.
I think it's rather unfortunate that for a lot of kids these days their first exposure to sex is porn, something which instills disrespect, degredation, and unrealistic depictions of not only human bodies but how two people engage in sexual behavior (the people ALWAYS want to have sex with each other, not so in reality!).
I think I understand your point... Experimenting in sexual activity (not intercourse) is normal for most children. I suppose that makes me rather abnormal because I never so much as kissed or held hands with anyone of either gender until I was 18 - but I don't mind. Everyone matures and develops differently and I'm glad that while I've always felt sexual, I didn't act on anything until I had reached the age and was with the person I felt comfortable with.
I know people who have been sexually active since a very young age and, for the most part, regret doing so. They weren't ready for all the major emotional turmoil and responsibilities (emotionally & physically) that come along with sex. Most children are not - they're kids.
I do agree that kids should be given a more comprehensive sex-ed class, a class that teaches not only the scientific and health fundamentals, but one that also teaches respect for one's partner and how to decide when it is right for them to start engaging in any sexual activity. I think that if kids in the United States were given this, 12 year olds wouldn't be so willing to give blow jobs to older men in their school's parking lot (true story from my area), and would stop looking at sex as some "fun" form of instant gratification that's no big deal and isn't capable of hurting them. I think kids too often think that things that feel good can't hurt them - drinking, drugs, sex, etc. and are even more enticed by the fact that all of these things are essentially labeled as "adult-only" activities. I think if kids were taught just how serious sex is, they would probably be much less eager to start in on it at the age of 12.
I completely agree with you. In our society at least sex is a VERY big deal and kids don't realize that. On the other hand, stuff like mutual masturbation, fondling each other, etc, as kids is NOT a big deal. It's healthy and normal exploration. Though I guess I'm also a bit abnormal because I never had any of that (I was molested when I was nine and then raped at 15+, so I turned out rather messed up), but that was probably because I grew up in a very religious community. I remember once my little sister kissed her male friend and got into loads of trouble for it though. x.x
And I agree with you right back. There's nothing wrong with viewing sexuality as a part of normal human life. I've always found that more people become messed up when they are told the sexual sides of themselves are dirty, wrong, perverted or what have you. Sex and sexuality are not what is wrong with the world. People can however take something very positive and turn it into something very negative.
I'm very sorry for all of those bad things that happened to you. Those people who did those things would fall under the category of people who warp and taint what should be a beautiful and wonderful thing for two people to experience together. I'm glad things are better for you now, from what you've said in your blog.