I really don't like how people who don't support the war are labeled as unpatriotic and not supporting the troops. Many of the people out there that don't agree with the war love their country, and love their troops. Some of them even ARE the troops. Seriously, stop bashing people that disagree with you.
I don't support the war.
I don't support the troops either.
I really do not believe that you can say you are for peace and support people who willingly kill other people. The only way this world will get any better is for people to stop being patriotic and religiously intolerant. In fact, tolerance is not the answer either. Acceptance is. Real estate, religious intolerance, and patriotism is the cause for most wars. Or maybe the apparent cause...
I think there are much deeper, underlying causes for war. Look at war on a smaller scale, at each individual conflict. They are just people, people that don't know each other, and they are killing each other. Why? I think this is a good question.
I don't support people who kill other people. That includes the troops. They have a choice, not just American troops, but every soldier on any side. They don't have to kill anonymous people, I don't.
If you believe in free will then you MUST believe that every soldier has a choice, and without soldiers there is no war. I would go to jail, leave the country, or live in poverty before I joined the army and killed people, or helped others do so. So the real reason for war, is the soldiers, and their reasons for joining the army (or being "terrorists").
I think lots of their reasons would again be political patriotism or religious views, but I think that a lot of people join the army because of their economic state. It seems countries could poor so much more money into developing healthy economies and helping to eliminate poverty if there was no army or wars.
But, honestly, what do I know. My thoughts, and who I am is only shaped by my background. I could have just as easily been more in another place, in which case I might be a terroristic Muslim, or a patriotic Christian. Or sadly, someone who ignorantly sees the army as the only way to to increase their lot in life. In any of these cases my opinions would probably be different, but since all I can truthfully write about are my own opinions, this is mine: I cannot support anyone who willingly and knowingly kills another person, I don't support terrorists, and neither do I support the troops.
"It's impossible for me to get emotional about it, because real estate doesn't interest me. It's no doubt a great flaw in my personality, but I can't think in terms of boundaries. Those imaginary lines are as unreal to me as elves and pixies. I can't believe that they mark the end or the beginning of anything of real concern to a human soul. Virtues and vices, pleasures and pains cross boundaries at will." ~ Kurt Vonnegut
I believe all the soldiers are fighting for a different cause like "adventure", curious, they think they are patriotic, want to get away from their own problems, want to get a way to pay for college,or just have the gutts. The only reason why I support them because it was thier choice....the U.S. could be doing drafts, but they haven't so now people have a choice. In otherwards those soldeirs choice effects us all. How would you like being drafted for a cause that you do not believe in?
I am thankful for the troops, in a since that if they weren't the troops I would be the troops. (to quote Steven Colbert). But again, I would go to jail or leave the country if there was a draft. And no one can make you pull the trigger.
Like I said, each person is different and has different opinions. I respect anyone's decision, even if it is to join the army, or be a bugler. But I don't support those decisions.
But what does it matter what I support? Haha, I have no power over anything, so it doesn't really much matter.
I'm not a 100% total pacifist, but I generally agree with what you're saying. Willing participants in a bad cause should not be exempt from moral criticism. The German kids who were conscripted to fight for the war machine in the '30s and '40s had some excuse. The modern American killers have none.
I think you are trying way too hard to simplify a very complicated situation, and drawing conclusions whenever it's useful to you. If you have ever been poor or down on your luck or desperate-you'd do anything you could to feed your family. Not everyone joins the army because they're adventurous, curious, or just like to shoot things. Some people dread it, but without successful and far-spreading social welfare programs, it's their only option-or at least appears to be.
That said, I am anti-War, but I can't say that I'm anti-troops. By doing so, you are assuming that every single soldier is there 100% of their own free will. Assuming that there are no pressures from the world, or from the stomachs of their children. Don't discount every soldier, some really are just trying to feed their families.
This situation is not black and white. Though our premise for being in Iraq is throughly flawed, I feel that so many people see this war as some violent shoot em out video game. Our soldiers are not rushing into towns guns blazing taking down the enemy. These guys and gals are barely experiencing direct combat. The Iraq "War" is technically a police action.
My best friend joined the army earlier this year because for him it was as valid a career choice as deciding to be a doctor. He had been locked into the family business that wasn't making any money and if he used the expertise he had been honing for four years as a landscaper and excavator to change jobs, he would have been put in an entry level position not even making enough money to put gas in his car. So now he is in Iraq preparing land for the building of houses....
These kids (most of them are under 24) are so often doing this because it is a legitimate opportunity for a better life, not just so they can go shoot up people (as most will never have to shoot a person)
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"Jesus take the wheeeeel!"
"I'm not sure she really understands how it works..."
It's not a "legitimate career choice" to occupy someone else's country. Sorry, not buying it.
There is more to being in the military than what is going on right now in Iraq.
Pacifism is a joke. As long as there is a sense of right an wrong there will be conflict. One can talk about understanding and peace all they want, but as long as there are people there will be war.
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"...She threw her hands up in the air
Jesus take the wheeeeel!"
"I'm not sure she really understands how Jesus works..."
Pacifism is not a joke, Jesus preached pacifism so you're gonna call the ideals that you believe in a joke?
Jesus did not preach pacifism, he preached love, tolerance, humility, meekness, and forgiveness but he did not preach pacifism. I am actually doing a study on that very misconception at the moment. Many seem to see Jesus as some skinny little guy who walked around in a dress holding hands with everyone and singing songs of love and peace. He was a strong carpenter who once walked into a temple and totally lost it breaking tables and yelling at people, and when he comes back it will be explosive because he will be coming back ready to fight...
p.s. rate posts, it makes you look cooler
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Who told us that we ought to be walking in a straight line keeping the peace? The Bible is full of risk-takers, people who took a look around and said HEY this isn't right!
No he won't. He comes back after the fall of the antichrist when there is no one left. And he'll establish peace. He doesn't fight at all. Jesus not preaching pacifism continues to show me that Christianity is as violent as Islam so I have no reason to respect them still even though I do for reasons I don't know.
p.s. rate posts, it makes you look cooler
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Who told us that we ought to be walking in a straight line keeping the peace? The Bible is full of risk-takers, people who took a look around and said HEY this isn't right!
The quote in your signature reminds me of a joke.
"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me."
Emo Philips
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
Pacifism is a virtuous philosophy. If every person on the planet adopted it we would be better off. The problem with applying it to this specific moment is that not everyone is a pacifist.
Specifically, what do you suppose would happen if the troops you criticize were to all adopt your stance. More broadly all American youth suddenly refuse to join, be conscripted, or fight. Are you naive enough to think peace would be the result? Do you for one moment think that a defenceless country as wealthy as the USA could keep that wealth?
Wars may have territorial or religious elements within their justifications, but in the end they are driven by money. People need food, heat, shelter, tranportation and medicine. Money, or in this case oil are controlling factors in survival. If Your nation was as poor or poorer than all of its neighbors then pacifism might not bring disaster. That would not be the case if you had something your violent neighbors wanted. At best they would simply annex your country and make it a part of theirs.
More children in Iraq under the age of 5 died in the ten years following the first Gulf war from hardships created by the UN sanctions than all of the casualties of the current comflict. Bullets are not the only thing that kills, lack of medicines can be just as deadly.
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
And one of the most disappointing facts most people, doubly so in a blogging community, must face is that their opinions don't matter really much at all. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not in any way directing that at you, I'm really more directing it at me. What I bring up is just an idea, an Ideal that I believe the world should be. I don't support terrorists or other people that would attack the United States, but I also don't support people that attack other countries for the United States. At best the army should be a defensive measure, not a preemptive one.
But honestly, if I was another person in another body with different background I would think other than what I think now. That's true for everyone. So I understand that other people, namely people in the army, don't share my ideal.
My opinion really doesn't matter at all in the position I'm in. I can't change what other people want to do, if they want to fight (literally) for a better life, but since I myself would not do it, as in I would not join the army no matter how desperate my situation became, I must hold other to my moral standard in my mind. I can't think of people with free will going to kill people in other countries as good. I'm sure many of these young, painfully young, people are great people. Most people are good as individuals. I don't support their actions though, I can't.
The Ideal is that no one in the world should fight, the FACT is that people (if you believe in free will) freely choose to kill each other. This fact I don't, and can't support.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/monsters (stop on by!)
is often beat out by desperation, starvation, etc.
I believe in free will, but you can't discount the pressures that people have placed upon them by others, themselves, or previous choices they have made.
As it appears to me, you haven't got someone in your life that depends on you, perhaps you cannot even envision the scenario. Maybe someday you will have a child and you too will realize that you would do anything, nothing short of anything, to keep them safe and warm and fed.
I agree with your wishes, but we have to deal with the world as it is. I'm also glad that you have been protected from the violent world by soldiers, willing to kill, and police, also willing to kill, to the extent that you have. I was just trying to point out that those you do not support are NECCESARY to suport you.
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"I would not join the army no matter how desperate my situation became"
I once had an employer whose son, my co-worker, frankly stated that no matter how desperate or broke he got he would never sell his classic red convertible Corvette, or his condo at the beach. Might I suggest that neither you nor he has any concept of what desperation is?
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
But please remember there are young americans who thought on the off chance it would be their chance to go to school, since without the government money they would not be able to afford it. many do not support the war, many do not want to kill, many will forever be haunted by the things they must do because they are trapped by a contract. i may be biased, maybe its unfair I know several people in Iraq, who are tired, emotionally exhausted, ready to come home, though they were really never ready to leave, but do the job that is asked of them. Taking patriotism out of the equation, it can be simply put, they have a job and they take the responsibility of fulfilling what is asked of them in that job. Its all you can do when you can't walk away.
How many people remember WWI and the pacifism that was around early part of the 20th century? Look at the past..... Pacifism doesnt work.
Our troups learn a lot. You get skills and out of poverty situation. Also troops get benefits both health and education but also applying for federal jobs.
Published Author and Poet
Teacher Education Student.
I agree with you. Especially now, American troops genuinely have a choice. The USA no longer has a draft which means every troop is a VOLUNTEER! If they don't want to go to war, if they don't want to kill people, why are they enlisting?
Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.