Let me tell you a story. This is a story about how God was born. Everything has a beginning - yes, even God. So gather around, boys and girls, and listen closely.
Once upon a time there was a universe. This universe was a wonderous place. It consisted of many things. It had many galaxies, many solar systems, many stars and planets. One of these galaxies, the Milky Way Galaxy, had in it a solar system, located in the section known as the Orion Spur. In this solar system was a star we call the Sun, and many planets, one of them known as Earth.
On Earth there were people. There were men and women and boys and girls and all sorts of animals and they all lived together, sometimes in harmony and sometimes not.
Now you must realize, these people were the result of tremendous evolution. These people were, in fact, the result of billions of years of evolution. You cannot imagine that sort of time, so don't even try. It is beyond comprehension. These people, at any rate, were extraordinarily powerful. Through tremendous intellect, they were able to come to entirely rule the Earth, despite being physically weaker than many of the other animals.
These people were also different than the animals they lived with in another important way - they had self-awareness. They were sentient. In other words, they had a soul. And a soul, boys and girls, is a very, very important thing.
These people were wise, and they knew many things, and among the things they know is that everything has a beginning, that nothing comes from nothing. They looked around their world and they saw how incredible and perfect it was; they looked within themselves and they saw their souls and knew that their souls came from something, their souls were forever, their souls were not of this world.
They thought and they thought and they came up with an idea: God.
And as they believed it, as billions believed it, as generation after generation believed it, as through life and death they believed it, as their souls believed it - God was born. For those people had tremendous power - with their belief, with their faith, with their souls, they could create such a thing as a God.
So God was born. And God was wiser than those people - infinitely wiser. Wiser, and capable of many things they were not. Capable of doing anything he chose to do. Capable of knowing everything. Capable of controlling past and future.
And so God did something that was very simple to him, though how he did it is incomprehensible to us. He went back. Back before his birth, for time means nothing to a god. Back before there were people. Back before the planet called Earth and its Milky Way galaxy. Back before the universe. Back before time.
And then, God looked around, looked ahead, and knew what must be done.
And God said, "Let there be light!"
And there was light.
If you liked this post, please rate it and check out the rest of my blog!
:))
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
D: I was being serious!
Doesn't mean it isn't funny. :-P
An interesting thought, but until evidence shows that the world was flat before people believed it was round, I'm not going for it...
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
Although I have my own beliefs, I cannot deny that you are a great writer. You have an interesting and captivating way of writing that I really admire. Despite our different views on cussing (haha, sorry...) I love to read your writing. I give this 5 stars because I was thoroughly enthralled in this "story." I have my own opinions on the topic at hand.. But I wont go there.
Why thank you! It's refreshing to have a rating be on quality rather than whether or not you agree. :)
No problems. I know good work when I read good work. I like all of your blogs. I don't really know why. I just get hooked into them and cant stop reading. It's like reading a good short book. You know the ones where you start reading and you don't wanna put it down? *cough cough KITE RUNNER cough cough*
A lot of Christians want people to follow religion blindly without injecting common sense or scientific fact. They have no answers for any practical questions that might arise from their ridiculous beliefs other than, you have to have faith. I think one question that is overlooked has to do with worshiping and praising God. Okay, let's pretend God's real, why should we worship him? Why should we praise him? Because he's great? What did he do to get so great? Nothing, because in theory, he always was great. This proposed God has done nothing to deserve praise. But that's just my view that you don't praise somebody for something they didn't accomplish. Anyway, good post and glad to find something we can agree on. (that abortion blog was pretty fierce lol)
I think the Christians you may be describing are those who have been brought up with it. Those who have lived it their whole lives and know nothing different. They only "know" it's right because they are taught it's right. So let's keep pretending He is real. Jesus is a factual person, who really existed... Let's go with that. Suppose He was God's son and what He died for is real and true. We then are given a choice. Accept what He did... Or not. Those who accept it can go to Heaven lalala, those who don't go to Hell... Oh no. Bottom line is that everyone is given a choice. I didn't grow up with it in my family. I didn't know anything about the bible. I knew the basics... but not the whole inside scoop. I made it my own to find out for myself. I found out my facts. I read everyone's different views. I formed my own. It's pretty obvious by now what I believe I'm sure. So Jesus died... We can choose to believe what God's word says or we can do whatever we want. Maybe He was created to make people behave and give people a so-called path to follow. Maybe He's real. I guess there's only one way to find out.
I think my theory is perfect for Christianity. It doesn't go against Christianity in any way whatsoever. :D
If God really did create me and put me on a really cool planet and so forth, I would totally thank him. Not sure if I'd WORSHIP him for that, depends what else he did and if he was a good and moral god, but I'd definitely thank him.
Agreed... It doesn't go against the idea of Christianity. The timeline is a little off according to how God says it happened. I would have to agree with you also... I don't think you have to worship God. I don't think it's all about that. Acknowledge Him, believe in Him, whatever you interpret His word's meaning to be. I think it's all about interpretations. I consider myself Christian but I haven't a whack interpretation of the religion. I'm not even so sure I like or agree with organized religion. It's sounding a little crazy now... It makes sense in my head though.
A very nice approach which holds a lot of (my personal) thought, to bring it the way you did brought me a desire this blog would never end…lol
Hope the whole world will read it, ;-)
I like your story...it brought a lighter side to all of the comments I've been getting tonight for defending my religion
Glad to amuse you! It was totally meant to be serious though O:
oh no...I didn't take it as fluff or not serious...but it's just lighter reading and discerning than a lot of things I've read/ responded to tonight
This is a topic that I have been really struggling with. I grew up in a very devout (though screwed up) Christian environment. However, because of the screwed up-ness of it all, it is hard for me to believe that the good part of Christianity I learned is what I witnessed from all the "Christians" that raised me. Since then, I have created my own Christian doctrine, not associating myself with any particular denomination (though Mennonite is probably the closest I've found to relate to), borrowing a lot of how I think of things from Buddhism and even atheism. Sounds bizarre, I know, but it somehow makes sense for me. Anyway, this isn't about my life story, but I think that however God was created or humanity was created, the only thing I know is that God has no gender, and I have a really hard time identifying God (who or whatever that might be) with "he" or "she." But in direct response to this entry (sorry it took me so long), I don't much think it matters how God was created or how we were created or all of those little things that so many people get caught up in. The only thing I can figure is that God is real. God must be real. Maybe it's just the way I was raised, but I have never really been able to NOT believe in God. I've tried, I've been that bitter, that angry, that sad, but I can't entirely turn my head from it. So while I don't necessarily worship in the way that many evangelicals (or pentacostals) do, I do find a way to give credit to God for the general goodness and beauty in the world and in humanity. That doesn't mean that God should get all the credit when a person does something good - certainly we should give credit and praise to that person - but the goodness that drives the person to do good things must come from God. As far as evil goes... well, I can only suppose that doing evil things is a choice to turn away from what is good. Evil builds upon evil, and eventually it erupts into something bigger than we can imagine, something so disgusting - well, of course, we all have our own moral definitions of what "good" and "evil" look like. I doubt they are, respectively, angels and demons entirely. Anyway... just what I'm thinking about...
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/kariskoett
"All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else."
-Buddha
I'm in the same place you are. I know what you are talking about, although I haven't been raised with it like you have. I completely know what you are talking about and agree.
I was raised in a whole heap of crazy, too, and it left me similarly disillusioned. Now I don't know what I believe, so i just remain open to the possibility that there may be a higher power, but I'm not keeping my hopes up. I expect there isn't one, but if there is one, I will be pleasantly surprised. Right now I'm working on how to be spiritual without dogma. That's hard when you come from crazytown.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
Pleasantly surprised?
I'm kind of nervous about the whole existance of a higher power. What if the higher power isn't very nice? D:
I think that's where the faith part would come back into the scene. You would just have to trust they would be nice. I think any high power, regardless of whatever religion it's based from is one that demands fear. However I think that Whoever put us here and created the earth can't be all so bad. Look at how we treat each other. Whoever is in charge is either VERY merciful, or non-existent. I'd like to take the optimistic stance on that point. I guess the way I see it is like this: So what if there isn't a higher power, or no God? I've been a nicer person since I formed a relationship with whatever I formed a relationship with. I'm more considerate, passionate and thoughtful. That in itself is more rewarding than anything to me personally. So if I'm wrong... I'm wrong. But I don't feel wrong.
there is that. Hmm. I just meant it would be nice to know that all my anxiety over it wasn't for naught. But then again, I guess finding myself in hell wouldn't exactly be a comfort...
Here we go! Back into the quandry again. It kind of sucks to be agnostic.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
Also, what if this god isn't all-capable? Then we could start a revolution against him if he sucked. O:
We haven't exactly done a great job of getting rid of the idiot in charge here in the U.S. How are we going to do that on a universal scale?
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
...yeah, but wouldn't it be fun?
That would suck.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
Silly woman, haven't you heard lightning gives humans super powers? You get zapped and wake up the next day able to read minds.
Anyway, if our revolution got big enough, we could think our own God into existance. It might take a while though for it to get properly ingrained as a belief.
If one wants to see the light, he only needs to sniff “gold dust”…lol
There is no such thing as evil or higher power, there is a source and it’s a top notch good one.
One can even enjoy it on this level of existence… enjoy what you do best, I VOTED FOR YOU!!!
;-)
What if there is no God? What if the Romans were right? The Greeks? The Jews? The Mormons? The Muslims? NOBODY?
You can't spend your whole life in fear of your afterlife...
-Sonja :)
"Democracy works only when you vote. When you don't take the time to vote for the candidate you find the least offensive, you run the risk of electing the candidate you find the most offensive."
I really liked your idea of how things happened. Talking about the beginning of the world is something so mind-blowing, so crazy, that no human mind can fathom it. If God exists (I personally believe he does-but I don't think that really matters for this post) then where did He come from? But then if we created God, where did the universe come from? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? There a lot of unanswered questions out there, ones that can never be answered. Your post certainly made me think about what those answers could be...
I am one of those--the ones that grow up Christians. Sure. I never drank, i never smoke, chew, or go with boys who do but I know God is real from what He has done in my life. If is because of what He does and who He is that He deserves all the praise. I found it really interesting that ya'll would thank God and then move on. Maybe believe a little but that is not what we are called to do! Jesus said to take up our crosses daily and follow Him. In other words, drop everything and go after what He desires. My life without God would be pointless. I would go throughout my day and talk to people, hang out, do homework and sleep. I have a purpose now! To glorify my creator in all I do. If someone saved your from getting run over by a semi, would you simply look and them and say thanks? Of course not. You would be flabbergasted and want to kiss their feet (well as long as you value your life). That is what Christ has done for us! He has saved us and forgiven us for all we have ever done wrong-past, future, and present. All we have to do is accept Him. And then on top of it all, He has gone to prepare a place for each one of us specifically in heaven!
I had never heard the theory about God being thought by humans into existence. I believe your statement that God knows no time is correct; however, no offense, humans could not think God into existence. Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." I found it interesting you quoted "Let there be light" but didn't mention all else he created. For that would imply that none of it had existed before He spoke it into existence. The Bible also says in Genesis 1:27
"So God created man in His own image;
He created him in the image of God"
It is impossible for man to have existed before God if they were created in the image of God. Without God there is no model for the human soul. There is also no way to explain how intelligence came into the world! How could humans think at all much less enough to create a God? Evolution supports over a long period of time matter evolves and alters into what it is today. However, where did the matter magically create a mind of its own and think for itself?
I am not saying this to offend anyone but simply to offer the other side and continue the discussion. Each is entitled to their own beliefs. This is what I know to be true: God is alive and changing lives. I know that is something to be praised.
Leah
....I think you didn't understand the story.
God has existed forever. Because once God came into existance, time meant nothing for him, he could travel backwards before time, before anything. So according to the story, even though he orginated in the minds of humans and only through them came to be, he actually created those humans and that universe and existed before they had. Does that make sense in a way?
And, the first thing he said was, "Let there be light." So that's what I quoted. :)
I see why you said let there be light now. as in a refernce to the rest.
I do see what you are saying about the time travel. however, i dont see how he could originate in the minds of those that dont have intelligence because technically he doesnt exist since he hasnt been thought up yet and gone back in time... if that makes sense lol. i guess my question is are you justifying that God existed before them? and i know it is one of the unfathomable things it just doesnt logically make sense as they couldnt think before God.
Leah
...argh. No. You didn't get it.
1. Humans evolved. Humans thought up God.
2. God existed.
3. God went back in time, thus existed before humans existed.
Very well-written. Your writing is very good! :]
I thought I would just let you know I briefly mentioned your blog here.
~ ~ ~
"Put it before them briefly so they will read it, clearly so they will appreciate it, picturesquely so they will remember it, and, above all, accurately so they will be guided by its light." ~ Joseph Pulitzer
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/k-mal
I'm flattered, thank you!
:] You're very welcome! I was enthralled by your story.
~ ~ ~
"Put it before them briefly so they will read it, clearly so they will appreciate it, picturesquely so they will remember it, and, above all, accurately so they will be guided by its light." ~ Joseph Pulitzer
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/k-mal
That was interesting. I've never really considered if things can be born from thought and thought alone. Makes me wonder about other religions. Paganism, for example, came before Christianity. Christmas, even though Jesus was not bron in December, is placed there because of the Winter Solstice celebration. It's easier to coerce people to change religions if you place your holidays near theirs. I enjoyed your story for what it is and am just expanding upon it. Please don't think I'm criticizing.
Hey, I never mentioned WHICH God I was talking about. :)
This is an entertaining blog.
The time travel theory of origin is one of the better ones, but the earthcentric assumption is a little hard to justify in light of the size of the universe, but maybe.
Truth is a demure lady, much too ladylike to knock you on your head and drag you to her cave. She is there, but people must want her, and seek her out.
William F. Buckley, Jr.
Earthcentric assumption? Explain?
We are the only intelegent life we know of, but...
200-400 Billion stars in the milky way galaxy,
125 Billion Galaxies...
Humans could be the only inteligent life, but what are the odds?
Truth is a demure lady, much too ladylike to knock you on your head and drag you to her cave. She is there, but people must want her, and seek her out.
William F. Buckley, Jr.
Quite possibly, considering the many, many complicated little things needed for intelligent life to develop. It's rather miraculous. Hence perhaps God just created Earth and stuck the stars there for... decoration? Our future lives? Who knows? Or maybe aliens thought up God.
Sure, anything is possible. the earthcentric guess is based on all that we can actually see. It just appears to be a tiny part of what is.
Truth is a demure lady, much too ladylike to knock you on your head and drag you to her cave. She is there, but people must want her, and seek her out.
William F. Buckley, Jr.
i see what you are saying. From those four points though where does God create man?
Leah
human. not man. careful.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/kariskoett
"All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else."
-Buddha
...after going back in time and creating the universe and everything.
Light is energy and matter in one, there is no life without it. Physical life, metaphorical life, spiritual life. It's common to many religious teachings that there's a contrast between light and darkness in their belief systems. Time is a construct invented by humans, convenient to measuring in a narrow sphere of existence, which is what ours is.
When time is all time: past, present, and future coexisting simultaneously --- and space has no objective differences [my Mountain Dew is over there, my computer is under my fingers, the bathroom is down the hall] --- so that things are everywhere and nowhere at the same time --- well, guess where you are?
Anyone want to meditate on the inadequacy of words to express what's ultimate?
Another great post from Kiota.
I Find this to be one of the more sensable semi-agnostic theories. It makes much more sense than the traditional "I can't see god so he must not exist" idea. However I still believe in the biblical chromology for this reason: God Created Man, therefore for man to invent God creates a paradox impossible for this logic to solve. I believe in the existance of a being (known to us only as God) which is so far beyond us evolutionally that it has ceased the need for physical from. Instead god takes on the more powerful form it has now, with the abliity to be in every christian mind universially, Manipulating the laws of fate and phyics to drive humanity forward towards being united with him (it)
....it's not an agnostic theory though. Because if the theory is correct, then obviously God exists.
"God Created Man, therefore for man to invent God creates a paradox impossible for this logic to solve."
...nonono. It's not a paradox if you throw time travel in the mix.
*headdesk* Why does no one get the part about time travel?
Because time travel, especially in the way you put it, is hard for a lot of people to wrap their head around.
You would enjoy the short story All You Zombies-- by Robert Heinlein. It's a time travel story that uses a similar concept to yours with God being both the creator and the created.
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
because you can't travel back in time to create yourself, or in this case create man to create god. Its impossible
Er, isn't the whole point of God that he can do ANYTHING?
Time travel is not that impossible, without the physical body it is possible to venture in both past and future although access to the future is limited and not really something one can access deliberately.
I think it is just because....
if humans could not exist without God (since He created them) how can they think him into existance? Without God existing the humans cannot exist. Time travel still has a beginning.
Leah
I don't think that's the point of this story...I share the same beliefs as you...but don't forget that your's aren't supreme...I like this story a lot...I think it's well written and holds a lot of ground above other similar comments about evolution and the existence of God... any God
...because once humans thought God into existed, he had ALWAYS existed, due to his time travel.
Is it that hard to understand? D:
I don't really think so..then again I'm really open minded and logical when it comes to thinking or talking about religion
this is the equivilant of a person going back in time to father themself, in order for it to occur you would have to have existed or in this case humans would have to have existed without gods creation which makes your theory either agnostic or impossible
...ACK.
What's wrong with a person going back in time to father himself? And God is ALL CAPABLE. God can certainly time travel and create humans, since God already existed at that point.
many people ask this question.
maybe God wanted us to question this.
I remember I once wrote something about how God intended humans to question and even to disobey. Will have to dig that up and post it, check back later tonight :p
....please do!
"To be on the wire is life. Everything else is just waiting. " :Joe Gideon
I believe it may have been from a branch of the gnostic religion that believed that Yahweh created the earth and humankind to basically stroke his ego- humans were created to worship and adore him. The fruit of knowledge was pushed onto humanity by Satan. The fruit of knowledge gave free will, as Satan believed that it was boastful and prideful to create a species simply for worship. So, in that belief, Satan was not evil, but another god.
-Sonja :)
"Democracy works only when you vote. When you don't take the time to vote for the candidate you find the least offensive, you run the risk of electing the candidate you find the most offensive."
If the fruit of knowledge gave free will, then how did they have the free will to choose to eat the fruit in the first place...by God...
free will was there from the beginning
"Personal strength can be measured by your willingness to overcome opposition."
-Amanda-
i as well wanna say: this is written so well and the concept in itself is very unique and i have not read anything like it before so it was very interesting to look at this viewpoint. Leah
Awesome blog! You are a really good writer! 5 stars from me ;)
I went to a Catholic school K-4. I was considered a troublemaker because I had logic. I would always ask questions the would piss the nuns off. "Who or what created God?" got me sent to the principal's office a couple of times. I wasn't being a smart ass, that time. Let's see... there was also, "So God only made two humans? I thought inscest was a sin." OK, so maybe that was me being a smart ass.
-Sonja :)
"Democracy works only when you vote. When you don't take the time to vote for the candidate you find the least offensive, you run the risk of electing the candidate you find the most offensive."
This blog was very nicely written.
Here's what I got out of it:
So what you're saying is that people thought up God, He was born/became real, and did the incomprehensible; to go back and create the world all over again?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't make total sense to me, but is still a well thought out theory.
-Amanda-
Check out my blog
Yes. :D
For anyone truly curious about an alternative theory to the beginning of the universe you should check out www.nullphysics.com This book puts a whole new spin on it all, a little math heavy but totally worth it!
Great blog, btw!
Here is the answer
1. His Existence is not coming into Being from non-existence
2. Human faculties of conception, perception and learning, and attributes of volition, intuition and apprehension cannot catch sight of His Person or fathom the extent of His Might and Glory
3. Reason and sagacity cannot visualise Him
4. His Attributes cannot be fixed, limited or defined
5. None can fully understand or explain His Being however hard he or she my try
6. His Worth cannot be described even by the greatest rhetoricians of all times
7. Intelligence, understanding and attainment cannot attain the depth of knowledge to study or scrutinise the Godhead
8. He is so absolutely Pure and above nature, that nothing can be added to or substacted from His Being
9. There is no difference between His Person and His Attributes, and His Attributes should not be differentiated or distinguished from
His Person
10. Whoever accepts His Attributes to be other than His Person then actually forsakes the idea of Unity of God and believes in duality ( He and His Attributes). Such a person in fact believes Him to exist in Parts. One who holds such a faith cannot form a true concept of God, he is ignorant and will always try to believe in some creation of his or her imagination as his or her god
11.There do not exist words in any language to specify or define His qualities, peculiarities, characteristics and singularities
12. He is with everything but not physically and bodily
13. No physical eye has and will ever see Him
14. He has not permitted human mind to grasp the Essence of His Being yet He has not prevented them from realising His Presence
You can find out more from this book, begin with sermon number 1
http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/index.htm
best wishes
Well, first off, there is no valid reason to say that god requires no beginning but the rest of existence does. The rest is something that cannot be debated since all I can say is that there is no reason to attribute these qualities to him, and you will disagree.
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
unfortunatly you have still misunderstood what I had quoted 'read the whole book first, I am not going to do your homework.....' read the book like an intelectual and then intelectually contradict the book. Do your research properly and then you will come to the right conclusion. This short cut through blogging here and there will will not produce enough right fruits of science, knowledge and Truth for you. This is how you go about searching for the TRUTH,
I hope I will not have to do your homework again.
Your sincere well wisher
While I have not read that book. I have read arguments about god's eternity. I don't have time to read a whole book on it, so if that book has any argument other than "it says so in whatever holy book", "something must have created the Universe, thus god did it and he always existed because he is the first cause" or "existence isn't eternal. We know this because of the big bang (not true) therefore, something has to be eternal". Every argument I've heard is some variation of one of those arguments. If that book has another one, give me the brief and then I'll take the time to read it.
This is about this blog. You made comments about god's eternal existence on this blog. They were statements made by you. Not by the book. You have to back those statements up in someway other than, you go do the research. That's not you doing my homework. That's you backing up your argument. You can say, for a more in-depth look, read this, but to refuse to defend the argument on your own is not acceptable.
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
And yet you still confine God to a gender...
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/kariskoett
"All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else."
-Buddha
rofl
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
Gender - You know very well the deficiency lies in all the langueges of the world, None of them have a word to define the gender for God. The word He, She, Thou, Thy, It....etc are all merely substitutes, they do not represent the gender of the One who does not have a gender. Why do you think the translator of the bible,quran etc sometimes use the word Thou and Thy etc? to tell you that "LOOK" we do not have a word for the gender of God.
As for your quote "All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else." I have already directed to you, from where you will get the answer, http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/index.htm read the whole book first, I am not going to do your homework for you. You are an adult and intelligent enough to find out for yourself. The answer is in that book.
Best wishes
The use of thse terms has nothing to do with the assignment of gender to the character referred to in these books as "god." Thou is an archaic second person singular pronoun in Middle English. Thy is just the possessive form of the pronoun. In English translations of the bible and the koran, the use of words like "thou" and "thy" is usually just a poetic affectation used to give a sense of ancientness to the translation.
I'm not as familiar with the koran as I am with the bible, but to the best of my knowledge, the latter references "god" in the oldest surviving texts using consistently gender-masculine terms. Even the term "spirit" which is technically gender-neutral (in Greek, anyway), is always refered back as the antecedent of a masculine pronoun. The only exception that I am aware of comes from a rather obscure subsect of eastern orthodox christianity that refers to "the spirit" with the gender-feminine term, ruah.
From what I know about the koran, the islamic version of "god" is considered to be gender-neutral, based on a passage that says...
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.
~ Surah 112
Even so, the original Arabic in the koran usually refers to "god" with the usally gender-masculine (but sometimes neutral) hu, or huwa. I am not aware of any instance (though I could be wrong on this one), of any cases where the usually gender-feminine (but sometimes neutral) hiya is used instead. If there is such a case, I would definitely be interested in having it pointed out to me.
TTFN,
Blackout
-------------------------
Yes, I've changed my username from "percivale" to "Blackout." Go here if you want to know why.
This is exackly what I mean. Read the book first! the explanation about all the gender and pronoun business is already explained in the book, now you are begging the question again.
I do not know how to make it simpler to you my friend, The thing that you want to know are in the book. READ THE BOOK!!!!!!! its there. The answers to your problems are THERE, read the book! CLICK HERE : http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/index.htm
May be this will make it easier for you to grasp the gender and pronoun business.
God's Existence is not coming into Being from non-existence. Human faculties of conception, perception and learning, and attributes of volition, intuition and apprehension cannot catch sight of God's Person or fathom the extent of God's Might and Glory. Reason and sagacity cannot visualise God. God's Attributes cannot be fixed, limited or defined. None can fully understand or explain God's Being however hard he or she may try. God's Worth cannot be described even by the greatest rhetoricians of all times. Intelligence, understanding and attainment cannot attain the depth of knowledge to study or scrutinise the Godhead. God is so absolutely Pure and above nature, that nothing can be added to or substacted from God's Being. There is no difference between God's Person and God's Attributes, and God's Attributes should not be differentiated or distinguished from God's Person. Whoever accepts God's Attributes to be other than God's Person then actually forsakes the idea of Unity of God and believes in duality ( God and God's Attributes). Such a person in fact believes God to exist in Parts. One who holds such a faith cannot form a true concept of God, he is ignorant and will always try to believe in some creation of his or her imagination as his or her god. There do not exist words in any language to specify or define God's qualities, peculiarities, characteristics and singularities. God is with everything but not physically and bodily No physical eye has and will ever see God. God has not permitted human mind to grasp the Essence of God's Being yet God has not prevented them from realising God's Presence.
Show me in this text, where is the gender and pronoun business?
You got it?
See how easy it is!
EASY PIZZY?
why must I do your homework?
READ THE BOOK!!!!!!! http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/index.htm
Your sincere well wisher
Ummm....considering that my comment above was my first contribution to this discussion, I'm not sure what you mean by "again." And, do you even know what the term "begging the question" means? Your usage above would lead me to believe that you do not.
With all due respect, it is just a wee bit unreasonable to ask the participants in a blog to read a book consisting of 239 sermons, when it would be much simpler (and much more consistent with the norms of nettiquette) for you to cite the specific sections of your source which you think support your argument.
Your entire argument above in predicated on one long string of assumptions for which there is no actual, objective evidence to support. Statements of this sort are conclusory, and without rational merit. It is true to a point that if one cannot observe the properties of a "thing," then one cannot assign attributes to a "thing." However, that is a sword that cuts both ways, and your assessment what "'god's' being" may or may not entail is nothing but pure guesswork. And, it is also predicated upon a rather basic logical fallacy. In fact, you just begged the question, in the classic sense of the phrase that I linked for you, above.
Well, it would take a book in and of itself to give you ALL of the examples that come to mind, but let's start with just two, one taken from the Book of John (christian), and one take from Surah 112...
In John 14:17 reads in English as "[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." The original Greek transliterates into, "pneuma aletheia hos kosmos ou dunamai lambano hoti theoreo autos ou oude ginosko autos de humeis ginosko autos hoti meno para humin kai esomai en human." "Pneuma", which translates as "the Spirit" is a gender neutral term. However, the pronoun "autos" is specifically masculine, and when it refers to "pneuma" as its antecedent, it identifies "the Spirit" as a manculine noun.
In English, Surah 112 reads...
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.
The Arabic transliteration reads...
Qul huwa Allahu ahadun
Allahu alssamadu
Lam yalid walam yooladu
Walam yakun lahu kufuwan ahadun
The term "huwa" is a uniquely masculine pronoun. So even though the theology in the qu'ran may suggest that "god" is without gender, the languge of the book seems to consistently refer to "him" with masculine pronouns.
How's that for a little homework?
TTFN,
Blackout
-------------------------
Yes, I've changed my username from "percivale" to "Blackout." Go here if you want to know why.
Yes, there are gender-language issues. Fortunately for us, the English language has offered a solution, which is to simply not use "he" or "she" when there is no "he" or "she." Words like, "one," or even simply saying the name of God is much less reader-offensive than repeating a gender that does not exist. Pronouns in our language actually do have meaning, whether they do in Arabic or not. "He" implies male, "she" implies female. My point has to do with the English language, not so much with Arabic or any other language.
The quote in my signature is not posed as a question. I am not seeking answers. This is a quote from Buddha that I happen to agree with. If you do not, that is fine. While I am open to other opinions on the matter, it is not something I am actively looking for. You are right, I am an adult and intelligent enough to make my own decisions and have my own opinions, as are you. If you would like to share with me an opinion concerning this quote, feel absolutely free.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/kariskoett
"All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else."
-Buddha
My friend,
You still want me to do your homework?
Did you read the book? .... intend to stop the research?
I will now make it very...... easy for you.
I have some videotapes, pal secam format, you probably have nt.. American format. Find out from you local video shop if they can convert them to your vcr system for some little charge.
Let me know and I will post them to you by Air Mail, FREE OF CHARGE, on condition that you do not stop your research and read the book
CLICK HERE : http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/index.htm
Your sincere well wisher
that you accuse me of "stopping my research" when you seem to have stopped yours at this one book.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/kariskoett
"All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else."
-Buddha
It's not an accusation my friend, it's just a question, look carefully at the quote ".... intend to stop the research?, Do you see the question mark at the end? it means "sentence seekind for answer"
However I do apologize if you fell this way.
Ar you still interested on those videotapes or not?
Let me know
Your sincere well wisher
I think the genderization of "god" is in fact on purpose. I think goes along with traditional beliefs of the gender power struggle. Women give birth on earth, and to feminize god would disrupt the whole social construct of gender.
-Sonja :)
"Democracy works only when you vote. When you don't take the time to vote for the candidate you find the least offensive, you run the risk of electing the candidate you find the most offensive."
Creation is subject to genderization.
Creator is NOT subject to genderization
There is a difference between the Creator and the created.
If both are equal what is the difference?
- Bandekhuda
Ummm... your creator has been genderized. Most gods have throughout the ages.
How is "creation" genderized unless it is in fact gendered?
Are you trying to say that it was the created that gendered the creator and therefore it doesn't count? I'm confused. Like I said, I think the genderization of god was intentional.
-Sonja :)
"Democracy works only when you vote. When you don't take the time to vote for the candidate you find the least offensive, you run the risk of electing the candidate you find the most offensive."
There is no wish, no glimpse inside an non physical environment without being part of the experience manifesting itself in full effect itself.
There is no has or ever in a non physical environment.
What is there possibly to be seen while being reality itself?
http://www.loveearth.com/uk/film/
Thanks for the enlightenment.
Best wishes
No imagination can fathom the reality of His attributes and no mind can grasp the mode of His entity. He is such a One that division or splitting into parts of His entity cannot even be imagine. The creation of universe caused Him no mental exertion.
He has been existing since the eternity when there was no space devide into galaxies and no universe ( and no time also);
He destine matter and energy to be dissolve into time. He so arranged and consolidated these factors - matter, time and space that the intensity of their diverse and opposing properties was reduced....., to have their existence relative to and dependent upon time, thus giving matter time, and therefore,space a continuum that one cannot exist without the other two.
for a more in-depth look, read this http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/index.htm
Your sincere well wisher