Fallacies of Islam

you're using sources that are NOT knowledgeable/objective or factual IN ANY WAY about Isla--- in my comments, I go through the list of links you gave and I even visited that Islam Watch site...It's all Bullshit or close to it (the information on the Quranic verses and Sunnah that those sites gave you) and YET..You insist on believing what they say and will NOT accept the reasoning of people who are giving you trustworthy and respected knowledge about Islam and from people like me who are actually Muslims and have grown up in a Muslim country and KNOW of Muslim society ...

This blog is ignorance on a topic not the thing you tried to say in your "appeal to ignorance" blog (in my opinion).
You consistently contend that your informaiton is accurate while everyone is trying to tell you it's NOT reliable and it is not what Muslims believe or what Islam is

You should visit sites such as ICNA http://www.icna.org/icna/index.php
or the MSA http://www.msanational.org/ and Islamicity http://www.islamicity.com/
Come at me with actual accurate and reliable knowledge and information about Islam ---because right now, you only seem like someone who is not even knowledgable about the basics of Islamic belief

"The good life, let's go on a living spree
Shit they say the best things in life are free" --*K A N Y E
http://www.progressiveu.org/231615-this-is-a-muslim-girls-plight

Islam has SO many contradictions in it, many that contradict even the Bible

Well, yeah... Muslims believe that the Bible has been corrupted by man. Obviously there's going to be some differences between Islam and Christianity/Judaism. This just indicates you're going into this argument without a clear head.

In Christianity, yes the man is the head of the household, but that doesn't mean we are slaves.

Leviticus 12:2,4-5 2. Speak to the children of Israel, saying: If a woman conceives and gives birth to a male, she shall be unclean for seven days; as [in] the days of her menstrual flow, she shall be unclean. 4. And for thirty three days, she shall remain in the blood of purity; she shall not touch anything holy, nor may she enter the Sanctuary, until the days of her purification have been completed.
5. And if she gives birth to a female, she shall be unclean for two weeks, like her menstruation [period]. And for sixty six days, she shall remain in the blood of purity.

Giving birth to a girl requires more purification than giving birth to a boy. Women are 'dirtier' than men.

Leviticus 27:3-7 3. the [fixed] value of a male shall be as follows: From twenty years old until sixty years old, the value is fifty silver shekels, according to the holy shekel;
4. And if she is a female, the value is thirty shekels;
5. And if [the person is] from five years old until twenty years old, the value of a male shall be twenty shekels, while that of a female shall be ten shekels;
6. And if [the person is] from one month old until five years old, the value of a male shall be five silver shekels, while the value of a female shall be three silver shekels;
7. And if [the person is] sixty years old or over, if it is a male, the value shall be fifteen shekels, while for a female, it shall be ten shekels.

Women are worth less than a man (3/5, 1/2, 2/3 as much in the passages above, but never equal).

That's all I have time for right now, as I have to bring my bags out to my car and dash off to class.

~C
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> Yes, we are both Abrahamic religions,
> or whatever you want to call them.

It helps when you refer to things by their proper, sociological forms. The reason that judaism, christianity and islam are considered Abrahamic religions is that they share a common belief that their forms of worship are descended from the traditional practices and beliefs of the same semi-mythical figure known as Abraham (Hebrew: Avraham; Arabic: Ibrahim).

> But they are still VERY different.

How so? I have already presented you with a fairly lengthy list of the traditional, literary and theological similarities between these religions. Can you be mosre specific about what you think the differences are?

> First, Islam has SO many contradictions
> in it, many that contradict even the Bible,
> that there is no way to decide what is
> good or bad but what the man decides.

How is this any different from the contradictions found in the bible itself? When you set aside the cherry picking, the bible is literally rife with textual and thematic inconsistencies. Overall, the general themes of the three major Abrahamic faiths are overwhelmingly similar.

> Christianity follows the rules we were
> given by God.

Do you have any objectively credible evidence which would indicate that the particular rules that you follow are more likely to be "given by God" than the rules of islam or judaism (both of which make the same claim, btw)?

> Second, where are you getting your
> information about men and women in
> these religions? In Islam you hear
> horror stories of the woman being
> nothing more than property.

It is true that modern islamic culture is far less enlightened when it comes to the treatment of the women in its societies, but when you look at the bible itself, the treatmen of modern muslim women is actually much closer to the standards laid out in the bible than what women in the modern west are used to receiving. Women are not considered to be equals in christian theology, either. For example...

To the woman he said: "I will intensify the pangs of your childbearing; in pain shall you bring forth children. Yet your urge shall be for your husband, and he shall be your master." (Genesis 3:16)

But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and God the head of Christ. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

Women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church. (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body. As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything. (Ephesians 5:22-24)

Wives, be subordinate to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord. (Colossians 3:18)

A woman must receive instruction silently and under complete control. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. (1 Timothy 2:11-13)

Similarly, older women should be reverent in their behavior, not slanderers, not addicted to drink, teaching what is good, so that they may train younger women to love their husbands and children to be self-controlled, chaste, good homemakers, under the control of their husbands, so that the word of God may not be discredited. (Titus 2:3-5)

Likewise, you wives should be subordinate to your husbands so that, even if some disobey the word, they may be won over without a word by their wives' conduct when they observe your reverent and chaste behavior. Your adornment should not be an external one: braiding the hair, wearing gold jewelry, or dressing in fine clothes, but rather the hidden character of the heart, expressed in the imperishable beauty of a gentle and calm disposition, which is precious in the sight of God. For this is also how the holy women who hoped in God once used to adorn themselves and were subordinate to their husbands;
thus Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him "lord." You are her children when you do what is good and fear no intimidation. Likewise, you husbands should live with your wives in understanding, showing honor to the weaker female sex, since we are joint heirs of the gift of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered. (1 Peter 3:1-7)

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/

And, that's just to name a few of the more general passages....

> They want you to believe that's not
> how it is, but the Qur'an and works
> of Mohammad say otherwise.

Can you cite any passages from a credible translation of the Qur'an that actually dictate a harsher treatment of women than what is found in the bible?

> In Christianity, yes the man is the
> head of the household, but that
> doesn't mean we are slaves.

In biblical terms, women were often considered to be slaves. For example...

When you purchase a Hebrew slave, he is to serve you for six years, but in the seventh year he shall be given his freedom without cost. If he comes into service alone, he shall leave alone; if he comes with a wife, his wife shall leave with him. But if his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall remain the master's property and the man shall leave alone. (Exodus 21:2-4)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go free as male slaves do. (Exodus 21:7)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, 5 you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion. (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)

> We work together. I have read both
> Qur'an and Sunnah, they say VERY
> differently from what you're stating.

Again, can you cite any passages from a credible translation of the Qur'an that actually dictate a harsher treatment of women than what is found in the bible?

> The Bible says ANY divorce is wrong,
> both men and women were not to do it.

Factually incorrect.

"When a man, after marrying a woman and having relations with her, is later displeased with her because he finds in her something indecent, and therefore he writes out a bill of divorce and hands it to her, thus dismissing her from his house: if on leaving his house she goes and becomes the wife of another man, and the second husband, too, comes to dislike her and dismisses her from his house by handing her a written bill of divorce; or if this second man who has married her, dies; then her former husband, who dismissed her, may not again take her as his wife after she has become defiled. That would be an abomination before the LORD, and you shall not bring such guilt upon the land which the LORD, your God, is giving you as a heritage. (Deuteronomy 24:1-4)

He said to them, "Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery." (Matthew 19:8-9)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion. (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)

Let us therefore enter into a covenant before our God to dismiss all our foreign wives and the children born of them, in keeping with what you, my lord, advise, and those who fear the commandments of our God. Let the law be observed! Rise, then, for this is your duty! We will stand by you, so have courage and take action!" Ezra rose to his feet and demanded an oath from the chiefs of the priests, from the Levites and from all Israel that they would do as had been proposed; and they swore it. Then Ezra retired from his place before the house of God and entered the chamber of Johanan, son of Eliashib, where he spent the night neither eating food nor drinking water, for he was in mourning over the betrayal by the exiles. A proclamation was made throughout Judah and Jerusalem that all the exiles should gather together in Jerusalem, and that whoever failed to appear within three days would, according to the judgment of the leaders and elders, suffer the confiscation of all his possessions, and himself be excluded from the assembly of the exiles. All the men of Judah and Benjamin gathered together in Jerusalem within the three-day period: it was in the ninth month, on the twentieth day of the month. All the people, standing in the open place before the house of God, were trembling both over the matter at hand and because it was raining. Then Ezra, the priest, stood up and said to them: "Your unfaithfulness in taking foreign women as wives has added to Israel's guilt. But now, give praise to the LORD, the God of your fathers, and do his will: separate yourselves from the peoples of the land and from these foreign women." In answer, the whole assembly cried out with a loud voice: "Yes, it is our duty to do as you say! (Ezra 10:3-12)

Also in those days I saw Jews who had married Ashdodite, Ammonite, or Moabite wives. Of their children, half spoke Ashdodite, and none of them knew how to speak Jewish; and so it was in regard to the languages of the various other peoples. I took them to task and cursed them; I had some of them beaten and their hair pulled out; and I adjured them by God: "You shall not marry your daughters to their sons nor take any of their daughters for your sons or for yourselves! Did not Solomon, the king of Israel, sin because of them? Though among the many nations there was no king like him, and though he was beloved of his God and God had made him king over all Israel, yet even he was made to sin by foreign women. Must it also be heard of you that you have done this same very great evil, betraying our God by marrying foreign women?" One of the sons of Joiada, son of Eliashib the high priest, was the son-in-law of Sanballat the Horonite! I drove him from my presence. Remember against them, O my God, how they defiled the priesthood and the covenant of the priesthood and the Levites! Thus I cleansed them of all foreign contamination. I established the various functions for the priests and Levites, so that each had his appointed task. (Nehemiah 13:23-30)

Once again, it seems that your knowledge of the actual contents of the bible seems to be significantly lacking.

> Voting and education, well they had
> education but voting was a something
> the society made up. Voting was not in
> the Bible, nor were there any verses to
> say that woman couldn't. Same thing
> with property. If you haven't noticed,
> Christian women are doing all you say
> we can't. Your argument is not relevant.

Actually, muslim women are doing exactly the same thing here is the U.S. and in other countries that have replaced their religion-dominated forms of government with the more secular forms of Republicanism and Democracy. And, it is really kind of silly to suggest that christianity was somehow the source of the equality that women in the West enjoy (at least in theory) today. the Suffrage was primarily a secular movement, and "No God, No Masters" was a popular slogan amonst both Suffragists and Abolitionists. Here is an excerpt from a "pastoral letter" issued by the Massachusetts Congregationalist Clergy in 1837...

The appropriate duties and influence of women are clearly stated in the New Testament. Those duties and that influence are unobstrusive and private, but the souce of mighty power. When the mild, dependent, softening influence of woman upon the sterness of man's opinions is fully exercised, society feels the effects of it in a thousand forms. The power of woman is in her dependence, flowing from the consciousness of that weakness which God has given her for her protection, and which keeps her in those departments of life that form the character of individuals and of the nation...But when she assumes the place and tone of man as a public reformer, our care and protection of her seem unnecessary; we put ourselves in self-defence against her; she yields the power which God has given her for protection, and her character becomes unnatural. If the vine, whose strength and beauty is to lean upon the trellis-work and half conceal its clusters, thinks to assume the independence and the overshadowing nature of the elm, it will not only cease to bear fruit, but fall in shame and dishonor into the dust.

The bottom line is that while modern christians may grant more freedoms to their female counterparts than their islamic cousins, the modern christian church still has a long way to go before it can really claim that it treats women as full equals. I mean, just look at the major christian denominations in the world. How many of them actually allow women to be ordained as mininsters? How many would go so far as to permit a women to sit at the head of their organization? The answer is of course a very small minority.

percivale

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"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.