So today I celebrated Passover at a Jewish friend's house near where I used to live when I attended high school. Now, I am not Jewish, or religious in any respect for that matter. In fact, in the last two years of my life I have become agnostic and nearly atheist. However, I think you would have to be rather cocky in order to proclaim a 100% confidence in atheism.
Anyhow, to continue, as they read through the story of Passover, and particularly the plagues, I could not help but wonder (politely in my own head):
"Why in the world would the Jews have to put sheep's blood on their doors in order let God know that they were, in fact, Jews, and not Egyptians?"
(So that he would not accidentally kill their first-born sons)
I thought God was all-knowing... all-powerful... the alpha and the omega... the beginning and the end...
A lot of people firmly believe that God can read their every thought. That He (and I have no idea what God would use a penis for) could not have been able to tell who was who, and that He might accidentally kill the wrong first born son (what's the point of God killing a son anyway? Why not appear to the Pharaoh in person, in a dream, something else?).
Does this just further poke holes in religion and a belief in a God? Does anyone have any explanations?
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I think that everyones should study if not talk part in other religions. You should also have an open mind and give the others the respect that is due. You may not agree with there beliefs but it is still theres. As for why the lambs blood, it may have to do with the back that God made with Abraham after he sacrificed a lamb.
I agree that there should be respect in this world for varying viewpoints and lifestyles. Unfortunately the vast majority of wars have come due to of religious reasons. Additionally, I believe that all too often people get an easy pass for what they say and do because they can fall back on "religious respect."
Why do we have to respect religion so much when so much about religion makes so little sense?
Rather than answer my question about why God could not tell who was Jewish or not you said I should UNDERSTAAAND and respect it. Additionally, why is this all-powerful and great being in need of sacrifices?
An example of people getting an easy pass:
In 2004 James Nixon, a twelve-year-old boy in Ohio, won the right in court to wear a T-shirt to school bearing the words 'Homosexuality is a sin, Islam is a lie, abortion is murder. Some issues are just black and white!' The school told him not to wear the T-shirt, so his parents sued the school.
The parents may have had a conscionable case if they had based it on the First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of speech. But they didn't: indeed, they couldn't, because free speech is deemed not to include 'hate speech'. But hate only has to prove it is RELIGIOUS, and it no longer counts as hate. So instead of freedom of speech, the Nixons' lawyers appealed to the constitutional right to freedom of RELIGION.
The Reverend Rick Scarborough, supporting the wave of similar Christian lawsuits brought to establish religion as a legal justification for discrimination against homosexuals and other groups, has named it the civil rights struggle of the twenty-first century:
' Christians are going to have to take a stand for the right to be Christian.' Once again, if such people took their stand on the right to free speech, one might reluctantly sympathize. But that isn't what it is about. The legal case in favour of dicrimination against homosexuals is being mounted as a counter-suit against alleged religious discrimination! And the law seems to respect this.
You can't get away with saying, 'If you try to stop me from insulting homosexuals it violates my freedom of prejudice.' But you can get away with saying, ' It violates my freedom of religion.'
WHAT, when you think about it, is the difference? Yet again, religion trumps all.
(Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, p. 23-24)
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -F.N.
It's humans that are flawed, not the God that a human chooses to serve. On many an occassion I have imagined God slapping palm to forehead saying, "Doh!" Because once again, we screwed it all up. It sounds like you have had some bad experiences with poor representatives of religion and have made an opinion about the faith as a whole because of those bad experiences. Maybe that's fair, but not necessarily accurate.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/kariskoett
"All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else."
-Buddha
In terms of how the story goes-
I don't think it was so much so God wouldn't accidentally kill their first born son. I think it was more of a gesture. If a Jewish family wasn't willing to make a sacrifice to God, to make the effort of putting lamb's blood on the door (while being slaves in an Egyptian world - it probably wasn't quite as easy as we'd like to imagine, like in The Prince of Egypt or something), then there would be consequences. Albeit, extreme consequences, but I think there is a lot of the story that we miss because it's no longer in context for us. The story means less to us, I mean, because we are not living in Egypt, we are not slaves, and we are living in the A.D. Does that make sense?
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/kariskoett
"All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else."
-Buddha
My feelings are similar to kariskoett's. The blood of a lamb wasn't so much that God would "know" who to pass over. The lamb's blood is indicative of the families' acknowledgement of God's power and symbolic of God's protection. Lamb's blood (Jesus' blood) is said to clean us and protect us from evil.
www.progressiveu.org/blog/americangirlinchina
Lambs blood... for cleaning/protecting/worship...
- If anything, a smart human being would agree that killing a lamb and then using it's blood to clean or protect something is illogical and only works to represent how ridiculous biblical stories can be.
If God told me to smear a dead animals blood on something for any reason, then I would ask him:
- Do you not know that this is unclean?!?! Diseases are spread this way.
- How does a lambs blood on a door protect me from anything?
- Can't you tell that I believe in you without me using blood to show it?
- Why are you a he? What do you need a penis for? (just because I have the opportunity to ask)
Seriously, why do people believe in these crazy stories, and then use illogical, archaic, ridiculous reasoning to explain why "IT ALL MAKES SO MUCH SENSE!"
"Well... of course we need the lambs blood because God said... blah blah blah"
Who are you trying to convince? or are you people even thinking?
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -F.N.
I believe the reason God would ask anyone to do something showing who or what they are is not for God's knowledge, but for the individual. It reinforces the relationship the individual has with God. It may also serve to hold the individual's pride in check. God created Man with free will so that we would chose to love Him on our own. God is joyful whenever we choose to do so. It's like the question of "if God is a good and kind God, why does he let bad things happen - especially to good people?" It's because he loved us enough to give us free will. He made us imperfect so that we could strive for perfection. Think of a perfect life. After a while, it would be perfect in relation to what? How could you have a good day without comparing it to a bad day?
It is because of all this that God asks/commands us to do certain things that might seem trivial. The act of obedience in and of its self is often what God may be looking for. It's a big part of trust/faith. Walking in faith is a large of showing our love for God.
It's obvious I have a bias as I am a non-denominational born-again myself, but I hope my response isn't taken as an attempt at "blog-evangelism." This is just my take on the issue at hand.
God is all knowing, and all powerful, but what would it teach his followers. God knows that if he asserted all his power all the time it would give a bad example to us, his people.
Ironically, humans rarely exibit discretion when it comes to wielding their power. So, it is not surprising that most people cannot understand that a perfect being would not want to always be perfect.
"my first name must be, "He aint sh@t", cause everytime I come through, yall be like "He aint sh@t"!....I'll be dat" --Redman
"Anything that can go wrong, Will go wrong"----Murphy's Law
A somewhat alternative explanation, considering I haven't read exodus in quite some time, might be that it wasn't God who went and killed the first borns... He merely commanded it. It was one of the angels who actually carried out the task, and the angels aren't all-knowing.
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
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If people are going to worship God, they're going to have to do as He says. The act of smearing the lambs blood on the door was an open declaration that those who lived there followed God. This is what God wants from us: to publicly declare that we follow Him. If someone did not smear the blood on the door, they were stating that they did not wholly trust in God. And when their first-born son died, they would serve as a leson and a reminder to all. God may be all-knowing, but we as humans aren't, and sometimes, we need reminders that God is in charge. I believe that this is why God, despite being all-knowing, required the act of smearing the blood on the doors. It showed His people in Egypt that He was still in charge and still expected to be followed. It was a reinforcement of sorts.
I'm fairly certain that doesn't make much sense...Sorry if it doesn't...
And that's comin' at ya' from yer local redneck hippie.
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The Story of Myself
When's the last time God actually asked any of you to do something?
And no I do not mean via the Bible or your priest.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -F.N.
I don't think God has personally asked anyone to do anything since the Old Testament days, so I could answer your question with--never. God doesn't physically speak to us anymore, so technically, he's never asked me to do anything.
However, if you do commit your life to being a Christian and studying the Bible, you can come to a place where you feel lead by God to do things. You pray and just sort of know what it is that you should do. One can develop a moral compass. I wake up every morning thinking of what God wants me to do that day. I try may best to listen and do it.
I'm no Mother Theresa, but she was asked about hearing God from time to time. Her reply once was something to the effect of that she waits and listens in silence. God doesn't say anything and she doesn't say anything. She told the interviewer--if you don't get that, I can't explain it to you.
I must admit, a lot of your comments frustrate and disappoint me. You seem to go for the sucker punch too often in you blogs and comments. What exactly are you trying to do here? What is it that you want to know? If you're just trying to stir up drama and get Christians' panties in a wad, what else is new? Your not the first and certainly won't be the last to do so. But if you're doing some soul searching and have some big questions, that's great. I'll read your blogs and do my best to give you honest answers. I'd just cut out the low blow statements if I were you so that others will take you seriously. If you want to keep them in there, I'll look past them and still give you honest answers.
www.progressiveu.org/blog/americangirlinchina
"However, if you do commit your life to being a Christian and studying the Bible, you can come to a place where you feel lead by God to do things. You pray and just sort of know what it is that you should do... I wake up every morning thinking of what God wants me to do that day. I try may best to listen and do it."
Just because you FEEL as though God is telling you, or leading you to do something does not necessarily mean that he is. If you read enough or are told enough (and especially from a young age) about one thing, in your case, what to believe about religion, then it is very likely that you will believe in the things you are currently sharing with me.
The next part of this response might upset you. I am not saying that you have some disease, just that there are many similarities between religion and things that are very easily created by our minds. There are things that are similar to what you are describing, one that comes to mind is Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD).
Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), a type of anxiety disorder, is a potentially disabling illness that traps people in endless cycles of repetitive thoughts and behaviors.
People with OCD are plagued by recurring and distressing thoughts, fears or images (obsessions) that they cannot control. The anxiety (nervousness) produced by these thoughts leads to an urgent need to perform certain rituals or routines (compulsions). The compulsive rituals are performed in an attempt to prevent the obsessive thoughts or make them go away.
Although the ritual may make the anxiety go away temporarily, the person must perform the ritual again when the obsessive thoughts return. This OCD cycle can progress to the point of taking up hours of the person's day and significantly interfering with normal activities. People with OCD may be aware that their obsessions and compulsions are senseless or unrealistic, but they cannot stop themselves.
What Are the Symptoms of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder?
The symptoms of OCD, which are the obsessions and compulsions, may vary. Common obsessions include:
Fear of causing harm to another.
Fear of making a mistake.
Fear of being embarrassed or behaving in a socially unacceptable manner.
Fear of thinking evil or sinful thoughts.
Need for order, symmetry or exactness.
Need for constant reassurance.
Common compulsions include:
Being stuck on words, images or thoughts... that won't go away and can interfere with sleep.
Repeating specific words, phrases or prayers.
---Taken from WebMD---
"One can develop a moral compass"
- I can also express my scientifically backed and personally realized experience that one does not need religion in order to be a moral person should you choose to argue this point further. Mother Theresa can, without a doubt, be a good person and carry out the same actions sans religion. You do not need religion to have a moral compass.
"I must admit, a lot of your comments frustrate and disappoint me."
- The word "disappoint" is generally seen as being condescending. Do you see yourself as being an inherently better person than me?
"You seem to go for the sucker punch too often in you blogs and comments."
- If something feels like you've been sucker punched, then it is possible that this means that you do not have a counterpoint. Or, it could possibly show that you never thought of something in the manner that I have presented it. Hence, you are shocked by a new viewpoint perhaps.
"What exactly are you trying to do here? What is it that you want to know? If you're just trying to stir up drama and get Christians' panties in a wad, what else is new? "
- I am trying to help people realize that I believe they have been lied to, that things are not so black and white, that "God" most likely does not even exist. I am not looking for drama, but rather, hoping to free some minds.
"Your not the first and certainly won't be the last to do so."
- This is a good thing. Thank you for the motivation.
"But if you're doing some soul searching and have some big questions, that's great."
- I do have some big questions that I put out there... then I wait for the Christian/religious response... and then I tell you why I disagree. (This must be that sucker punch you talk about and that I have responded to above).
"I'll read your blogs and do my best to give you honest answers. I'd just cut out the low blow statements if I were you so that others will take you seriously. If you want to keep them in there, I'll look past them and still give you honest answers."
- The "low blows" have already been addressed above.
- Honest answers? What may appear to be honest answers to you are actually opinions or repeated indoctrinations from others. If you were born in another country, with parents of one of the thousands of other religions, or if you were agnostic or atheist you would see this all very differently.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -F.N.
"There are things that are similar to what you are describing, one that comes to mind is Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD)."
Praying every morning and thinking about what God wants you to do is not OCD. It is a choice. We pray because we want to have a relationship with God and seek His guidance in life, not because we "are plagued by recurring and distressing thoughts, fears or images (obsessions) that [we] cannot control." If we don't pray one morning, night, or whenever it is we usually pray, we aren't caused great distress or anxiety. Nothing about what she described is anything like OCD. It's all a choice.
As for stating that she probably believes what she's shared with you because she was taught it from a young age...well, that can't be applied to every Christian. That can't really be applied to me. Yes, I grew up being taught "this is what to believe," but I was agnostic until a few years ago, when I started finding my faith on my own through God's guidance. A lot of what my mom "taught" me I simply don't agree with. We have gotten into many arguments because my beliefs differ from hers. I didn't find God through being taught...I found Him through His help and intervention in my life.
"if you were agnostic or atheist you would see this all very differently."
I was agnostic for most of my life. I have to agree that it seems like you're going for the sucker punch, even if it is unintentionally. And I take a lot of heat from people who don't share my faith, so I'm pretty conditioned against that sort of thing. I still don't see the reason for trying to shoot down someone's faith. And if someone is atheist, what harm does it do them if someone believes in God, as long as that person is not putting on a holier-than-thou attitude (which I have yet to see here on ProU) and looking down upon said atheist? If you refuse to believe, no matter what we may have to say, that's no reason to try and shot down our faith. We believe for a reason. And we're simply sharing part of what makes us who we are in a polite and friendly manner. We're not trying to force you to share our faith, if you don't want to. I, for one, would love to see you come to God, but if you won't, that's your choice, and I have to let you make it. I will respect your beliefs. I'm sure most other Christians here will, too. Is it too much to ask that you respect ours?
And that's comin' at ya' from yer local redneck hippie.
--
The Story of Myself
There is nothing wrong with what a person believes in. It is wrong if someone tries to force it on someone else. Most Christians do not want to take the time to look at other religions because the think that they are wrong. How can you judge something if you know nothing about it. I don't say mine beliefs are right and yours are wrong. All I know is this is what works for me, and I accept that they may not work for others.
"Praying every morning and thinking about what God wants you to do is not OCD. It is a choice."
- I prefaced my OCD comparison by saying that I DO NOT THINK THAT YOU HAVE A DISEASE BUT I SEE SIMILARITIES.
- Having said that I know of a few people personally and have seen people who are constantly thanking God for things (that really do not need to be linked to a magical deity at all), praying for forgiveness for the smallest potential transgression out of FEAR of punishment (in a made up afterlife), feeling obligated to say the Hail Mary 10 times before going to bed or doing something. Sounds pretty similar to me.
"We pray because we want to have a relationship with God and seek His guidance in life, not because we "are plagued by recurring and distressing thoughts, fears or images (obsessions) that [we] cannot control."
- So you don't pray because you are distressed or afraid that you have sinned against God and do not want to go to hell for it?
- Abusive RELATIONSHIPS have been described as having the following characteristics:
Using Intimidation, Making your partner afraid by using looks, actions, gestures, Smashing or destroying things, Destroying or confiscating your partner's property, Abusing animals as a display of power and control, Silent or overt raging, Displaying weapons or threatening their use, Making physical threats, Using Emotional Abuse, Putting your partner down, Making your partner feel bad about himself or herself, Calling your partner names, Playing mind games, Interrogating your partner, Harassing or intimidating your partner, "Checking up on" your partner's activities or whereabouts, Humiliating your partner, weather through direct attacks or "jokes", Making your partner feel guilty, Shaming your partner, Using Isolation, Controlling what your partner does, who he or she sees and talks to, what he or she reads, where he or she goes, Limiting your partner’s outside involvement, Cutting your partner off from prior friends, activities, and social interaction, Using jealousy to justify your actions.(Jealousy is the primary symptom of abusive relationships; it is also a core component of Love Addiction.), Minimizing, Denying and Blame Shifting, Saying the abuse did not happen, or wasn't that bad. Shifting responsibility for your abusive behavior to your partner. (i.e: I did it because you ______.), Using Children, Using the children to relay messages, Using visitation to harass your partner, Threatening to take the children away, Using Male Privilege, Treating your partner like a servant., Making all the big decisions, Acting like the "master of the castle.", Being the one to define men’s and women’s or the relationship's roles, Using Economic Abuse, Preventing your partner from getting or keeping a job, Making your partner ask for money, Giving your partner an allowance, Taking your partner’s money.
- I am pretty sure that I can link God to the vast majority of those via biblical teachings and religious beliefs. Sounds like a pretty abusive relationship to me.
"If we don't pray one morning, night, or whenever it is we usually pray, we aren't caused great distress or anxiety. Nothing about what she described is anything like OCD. It's all a choice."
- "Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) is an anxiety disorder, first and foremost. It is not a thought disorder. Although the thoughts associated with OCD are bizarre, they are not at all the focal point of the therapeutic objective. The essential features of OCD are recurrent obsessions (thoughts) that create an awareness of alarm or threat. (e.g., "I might get AIDS from the germs on that door knob;" "Since I had the thought of killing my baby, I might be capable of doing it;" "If I don't pick up that Band-Aid someone else might get sick from it, and I would hold myself culpable;" etc.). Persons typically engage in some avoidance or escape response in reaction to the obsessive threat (I typically refer to the obsessive threat as a "spike."). Obsessions take the form of either a perceived threat of physical harm to oneself or others or, in some cases, more of a metaphysical or SPIRITUAL threat to oneself, others, or perhaps a DEITY." ~by Steven Phillipson, Ph.D.
"I started finding my faith on my own through God's guidance...I didn't find God through being taught...I found Him through His help and intervention in my life."
- Can you prove this? How did he guide? How did he help? How did he intervene?
The "sucker punch" feeling has been addressed in a post above.
"I still don't see the reason for trying to shoot down someone's faith."
- Changing minds to prevent the propagation of a lie that causes various negative occurrences in the world.
"If you refuse to believe, no matter what we may have to say, that's no reason to try and shot down our faith."
- If something convincing was said, then I would believe you and go along with it. The logical thing to do is give a rebuttal if you disagree with a person.
" We believe for a reason."
- What is that reason? And why aren't you a follower of one of the thousands of other religions?
" I, for one, would love to see you come to God, but if you won't, that's your choice, and I have to let you make it."
- I for one would love to see you realize that religion is made up, but if you won't, that's your choice, and I have to let you make it.
"I will respect your beliefs. I'm sure most other Christians here will, too. Is it too much to ask that you respect ours?"
-Is it too much to ask questions and look for reasons as to why you believe? Am I not allowed to question your beliefs? Are you afraid to question your beliefs? Is the world still flat? Should blacks not be allowed to marry whites? Is slavery okay? I'm just trying to change your mind. I'm attacking your beliefs, not your physical body. If you feel saddened or confused that might be because your faith or religious beliefs do not really make sense and you are realizing that.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -F.N.
And now you're taking what I said out of context and twisting it around. I was saying that there are no similarities between OCD and wanting to pray. Your comparison held no merit, because OCD is not something someone can choose to have, and praying is a complete choice. Most people I know don't feel guilty or anxious if they don't pray. But all the same, humans are creatures of habit. We like routine. It's in our nature. So of course some people will pray the same time every day. You can't compare that to OCD unless you compare it to getting up the same time everyday, or showering everyday.
I do pray when I feel guilty, yes, but I pray because I know God will forgive me, and I will not have to live with a feeling of shame for doing wrong. And it is not a religious shame I feel...even when I didn't believe, I still had a guilty conscience. But most of the time, I pray simply to talk to God. Just to talk. Or I'll pray when I'm stressed out, and ask God to help me get through the tough times. I'll pray when I'm in a situation that has me afraid, because God comforts me. He lets me know He is watching over me and I am safe. I pray when I'm feeling down and battling self-image issues because I know I am not worthless in Gods eyes, no matter how worthless I may be in my own. I pray for those who are ill, for our troops overseas--as well as, specifically, my best friend's father. I pray when I'm happy to share my joy with God, to let Him know that I appreciate all the good He has done for me. And He has done quite a lot of good in my life. I do't merely pray because I have sinned and am afraid. To tell you the truth, I have no fear of God. I know that He loves me and is watching over me. And besides, I have no reason to fear going to Hell. I will not go to Hell because I have accepted Jesus as my savior. I have asked Him to come into my heart and forgive me of my sins. And He has.
That list of things in an abusive relationship? There is not a single one of them in my relationship with God. Therefor, your explanation of OCD and a feeling of threat, is null and void. I feel no threat. I have no fear.
It is difficult to prove that God has had an impact on my life through the internet. The proof is more in knowing me before I accepted Christ, knowing me now, and watching me grow. It's in watching me overcome my demons (in the figurative sense, to be clear about that) and help others battle theirs. If you want the full answer to your questions, which is much too lengthy to post here in a reply, I will be glad to message you about it, or even post a blog entry about it, even though I know a good portion has already found its way into my blogs.
And you do realize that it is not the belief that causes the negative occurrences in the world. It is the humans who give the belief as an explanation and excuse for their own sinful and hurtful actions. As a Christian, I follow Jesus' teachings. Jesus taught us that we should be compassionate and love one another as we love ourselves. He did NOT teach us to hurt others. He did NOT say that we should wage war against one another. He did NOT say anything to support ANY negative actions from ANYONE. It is Satan who does that, and Satan does not fear to do wrong in the name of the Lord.
Every Christian believes for their own reason. Mine is that God reached out to me, took me under His wing, and taught me how to love. He taught me to be happy. He taught me to trust again. And most of all, He taught me how to love myself, when I was in the lowest of places. I have felt His presence, and that is how I know what I believe is truth.
Questioning is one thing. Attacking is another. I welcome questions, and my faith does not falter when I do not have an answer. I'm not God...I don't know everything. I don't have the answers. I've accepted this. But I will not welcome anyone attacking my faith, for my faith is part of who I am. And so, by attacking my faith, you ARE attacking me. I am saddened that you insist on using an offensive and attacking tone, when you could pose the same arguments in a much friendlier and more considerate way, and probably stimulate more thought and less retort in doing so. And just because you don't believe does not mean you are right. So don't try to force what you believe onto anyone else. Talking about it, telling others what you believe and WHY is just fine. Answering questions and questioning other people's beliefs is fine too. But attempting to change someone's mind because you don't agree with their beliefs is not something anyone should ever do. It is rude, and it gives others the sense that you feel superior to them. It will make people less prone to believe you or listen to you, because you insist on trying to force your beliefs onto them. We have our freedom of choice. Trying to make us stop believing what we do just because you feel convinced it is a lie is not respecting our freedom of choice. In fact, it is quite the opposite.
The fact that you admitted that you were attacking my beliefs when I asked for you to respect them a little is not going to get me to come any closer to believing you. It won't get anyone to believe you. It just makes you out to be an inconsiderate person who feels the need to always be right. Besides, you should try getting a little more information before you start with the attacks. Half of your arguments are irrelevant. You are, to be plain and simple, telling me that the one thing that saved me from a lifetime of hating myself, feeling worthless and incapable of doing anything, from feeling like no one needed me, and there was no point in my even being alive...you're telling me that my God, who saved me from that, doesn't exist. You're telling me that the reason I am happy today, that I am growing more confident with myself, and no longer have a nagging voice at the back of my mind constantly putting me down and causing me to spiral into a place of darkness and despair, is all a lie. You're telling me that the God who gave me a purpose in life is nonexistent. Do you honestly think I'm going to believe that? In essence, by telling me that my faith is made up and my God doesn't exist, you're telling me that I have no purpose in this world and that I should just quietly crawl back into that pit of despair and self-loathing where I could end up crawling toward suicide, and not even try to come out. I never would have gotten out if it weren't for guidance and strength from God. And there is NOTHING you can say that will change that or waver my faith.
And that's comin' at ya' from yer local redneck hippie.
--
The Story of Myself
I'm going to start giving out ProU Oscars for prize performances on ProU. There's a lot of drama that goes down here and you, my friend, deserve an oscar for your eloquent and appropriate comment above. You're brilliant.
Kinkatia, it seems like we have similiar stories. I too felt alone in the world as a child. It was just me and God. I'll never let go of that relationship and no one can tell me that it's all made up and a lie.
What we have going on is so hard to explain to people. I'm going to divinity school next year in the hopes being able to handle the big, tough questions that our brothers and sisters throw out. It can be rough and it is for sure a battle of the mind and spirit. People can't understand what they don't perceive. If our friends on ProU never perceive God, they aren't going to understand Him. All we can do is live our lives the way we know that we should and not sweat it when others throw us those tough questions. There are answers for everything. Nothing is hidden that will be revealed later. It's all there, we just have to search for the Truth.
www.progressiveu.org/blog/americangirlinchina
I didn't even have God as a child. Until just a few years ago, I was agnostic. I was confused, and more alone than anyone should ever be. And since I've been saved, both from my sin and my internal conflict with myself, people have been trying to tell me that it's all in my head, and what I believe is a lie. The only thing I can think is, what was wrong with me before was all in my head. My salvation was not. This is one of the few topics I can actually get fired up on...
And that's comin' at ya' from yer local redneck hippie.
--
The Story of Myself
"That list of things in an abusive relationship? There is not a single one of them in my relationship with God."
- The God represented in the Bible, which is your religion's text and source of beliefs and information depicts your god in the ways that I listed.
" If you want the full answer to your questions, which is much too lengthy to post here in a reply, ...post a blog entry about it, even though I know a good portion has already found its way into my blogs."
- Yes, that would be more helpful for me to understand your entire belief system.
"And you do realize that it is not the belief that causes the negative occurrences in the world. It is the humans who give the belief as an explanation and excuse for their own sinful and hurtful actions. As a Christian, I follow Jesus' teachings. Jesus taught us that we should be compassionate and love one another as we love ourselves. He did NOT teach us to hurt others. He did NOT say that we should wage war against one another. He did NOT say anything to support ANY negative actions from ANYONE. It is Satan who does that, and Satan does not fear to do wrong in the name of the Lord."
- Do you mean to say that there aren't religious people who go around killing because of their religion?
Do you mean to say there aren't Christians who go around picketing funerals because of their religious beliefs?
- Do you throw out the Old Testament and any teachings not from Jesus?
"It is Satan who does that (evil), and Satan does not fear to do wrong in the name of the Lord. "
- Can you find me some examples of this in the Bible... besides, say... temptation?
"Besides, you should try getting a little more information before you start with the attacks. Half of your arguments are irrelevant. "
-examples?
- The vast majority, if not all of your arguments are based on emotion and not logic. Additionally, you always try to speak for "God" in your arguments.
"I know God will forgive me"
How can you know this for certain?
"God comforts me"
I believe that the IDEA of god might comfort you.
"He lets me know He is watching over me and I am safe. "
How?
"I appreciate all the good He has done for me. And He has done quite a lot of good in my life."
Like what?
"I know that He loves me and is watching over me."
How?
"And besides, I have no reason to fear going to Hell. I will not go to Hell because I have accepted Jesus as my savior. I have asked Him to come into my heart and forgive me of my sins. And He has. "
- What about the thousands of other religions in the world? Do you think they are all wrong and condemned to hell?
"Every Christian believes for their own reason. Mine is that God reached out to me (how?), took me under His wing (how?), and taught me how to love (how?). He taught me to be happy(how?). He taught me to trust again (how?). And most of all, He taught me how to love myself, when I was in the lowest of places. I have felt His presence, and that is how I know what I believe is truth."
-I'm think you will address this in your blog response?
"Questioning is one thing. Attacking is another."
- My QUESTIONING attacks your reasoning for faith, agreed.
"I welcome questions, and my faith does not falter when I do not have an answer."
FAITH: (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (Webster Dictionary)
"But I will not welcome anyone attacking my faith, for my faith is part of who I am. And so, by attacking my faith, you ARE attacking me."
- Once again, my QUESTIONING attacks your REASONING for faith.
"And just because you don't believe does not mean you are right. So don't try to force what you believe onto anyone else."
- I will post a blog shortly showing how it is FAR more likely that there is no god whatsoever. I agree, there is an incredibly slim and nearly impossible chance that there could be a god, but if there is one, they are nothing like what your religion or any other preaches about.
"But attempting to change someone's mind because you don't agree with their beliefs is not something anyone should ever do. It is rude, and it gives others the sense that you feel superior to them."
- Yikes! Seriously? So we should let people who believe something that we think is wrong continue to do so without questioning them or trying to get them to change their minds? That's a risky comment.
"Trying to make us stop believing what we do just because you feel convinced it is a lie is not respecting our freedom of choice. In fact, it is quite the opposite."
- I am providing you with ideas and questions and leaving you the choice to change your mind. I cannot change your mind. That is your choice which still remains on the table for you.
"You are, to be plain and simple, telling me that the one thing that saved me from a lifetime of hating myself, feeling worthless and incapable of doing anything, from feeling like no one needed me, and there was no point in my even being alive...you're telling me that my God, who saved me from that, doesn't exist. You're telling me that the reason I am happy today, that I am growing more confident with myself, and no longer have a nagging voice at the back of my mind constantly putting me down and causing me to spiral into a place of darkness and despair, is all a lie. You're telling me that the God who gave me a purpose in life is nonexistent. ... In essence, by telling me that my faith is made up and my God doesn't exist."
- I am telling you that God probably doesn't exist. Yes. Religion is a crutch that can help people. It sounds like you really turned your life around and maybe you should GIVE YOURSELF SOME CREDIT instead of a deity who cannot be proven.
"You're telling me that I have no purpose in this world and that I should just quietly crawl back into that pit of despair and self-loathing where I could end up crawling toward suicide, and not even try to come out."
- I hear this one a lot. "If there's not God, then what's my purpose? What's the point of even living?" Well, the very fact that you only get one shot is a pretty good reason to keep living. The countless beautiful things in the world. Taking a vacation. Helping other people. I could go on and on.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -F.N.
Underneath all your attacks on Christianity more specifically, you have some really provoking ideas. I appreciate your continued intellectual intensity.
Ok now, so you don't still assume that Christians just pray to God out fear right? There's much more to it than that. It's a way to go outside yourself for a moment and look at things differently. That time to gain perspective is crucial. Some Christians do pray to God and talk to Him with fear and sometimes I think we should be afraid and in awe, but that's like 1% of prayer for me.
Some friendly questions:
Can you tell me more about this Steven Phillipson guy?
I'm obviously struggling to provide you with proof of my beliefs, so can you prove to me that my beliefs are lies?
Do you think I need to awakening that you speak of based on the assumptions you make about all Christians?
Do you think I could possibly ever provide you with enough reasons to believe in God to satisfy your mind? If you don't see the possibility, I may give up here.
www.progressiveu.org/blog/americangirlinchina
Information on Steven Phillipson PH.D: http://www.ocdonline.com/vitae.php
"I'm obviously struggling to provide you with proof of my beliefs, so can you prove to me that my beliefs are lies?"
- This is the point of my blogs and posts. Its a slow process. It took me years to come to where I am now.
"Do you think I need to awakening that you speak of based on the assumptions you make about all Christians?"
No
"Do you think I could possibly ever provide you with enough reasons to believe in God to satisfy your mind?"
No
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -F.N.
I've got a freaking amazing book that I know you'd be interested in. No, it's not the Bible or one of those Christian books I bet you've had to resist the urge to throw out the window. It's called After the Absolute, by Dave Gold. It doesn't have any attachments to any of the religious crap you get peeved about. It's also conveniently all online for seekers to read. It's currently blowing my husband's mind and he's got me into as well. I don't know what else you've got going on in your life, but you need to read this book.
www.onzen.com
www.progressiveu.org/blog/americangirlinchina
Whoops, I didn't hit reply...my reply is below as "I only feel the need to..." We probably needed to start a new thread anyway since we're both long-winded.
www.progressiveu.org/blog/americangirlinchina
God has asked me to do something twice in my life. He asked me to use my knack for writing to serve Him. And he asked me to give my testimony.
But God did not ask me to do these things in the way you and I would ask others to do things. For the writing thing, I just had this constant nagging thought that I shouldn't give up on my writing. And when I discovered NaNoWriMo, I churned out an exciting, fast-paced fantasy...a Christian fantasy. When I'd finished it, I felt this satisfaction, this happiness, and this approval that was not mine.
And when He asked me to give my testimony, I was just sitting there, minding my own business, listening to the testimonies of others, when I felt like someone was nudging me forward. No one was behind me, but I distinctly felt a friendly little push toward he front of the room.
And that's comin' at ya' from yer local redneck hippie.
--
The Story of Myself
I only feel the need to address two points.
First, I haven't been told to believe what I believe in the way that you describe. Are you assuming that all Christians are brainwashed in some way? I am not brainwashed. I've looked at other religions and lived in other places and I come to the same spiritual conclusions every time. I choose to practice Christianity, but in a lot of ways my spirituality transcends religion. So, I agree with you that one does not need religion to be a moral person. Morality doesn't cut it though. In my opinion there needs to be more. Morality is dry thoughts of the mind. True spirituality brings forth fire in the soul.
Second, I do not think I am a "better" person than you and I'm disappointed that you would say such a thing. Yes, disappointed. I don't use this word in a condescending manner. I'm disappointed and honest, so that is what I'm going to tell you, brother. I do see you as a brother by the way. We're working towards the same goal right? To find the Truth and share that with others in the hopes that people can be free? You seem to feel entitled to free minds and I sincerely hope that you do.
All I'm trying to say here is that the manner in which you respond to others is something you should ponder about if you are going to reach your goals. There's no need to point fingers and tell people that they've been brainwashed and that you're going to free their minds. You shouldn't have to say it in the first place. Everyone knows deep down that there's Truth. It's each individuals choice if he or she wants to stare at it straight and see it for what it truly is.
www.progressiveu.org/blog/americangirlinchina
Three things:
1) Religious-speak does not equal validity
examples of such talk:
- "True spirituality brings forth fire in the soul."
- I feel that God wants...
- God told me to do...
- God knows such and such
- God sees such and such
- God thinks such and such
- I am called to do...
2) I will try to awaken minds rather than enrage hearts
3) Religious people's beliefs disappoint me, so i guess the feeling is mutual.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -F.N.
I try to tone down the religious-speak, but sometimes I can't help it. I'd be lying, or at least not completely honest, if I didn't speak that way. However, what do you mean but it's not "valid." What I believe is not valid, made up and a lie? Is that what you're trying to say?
I'm thinking you're still looking for someone to give you a sound or valid argument for how and why there is a God, an argument that would hold up in some sort of court. Maybe you're not looking for the Truth, but rather trying to prove everyone else wrong. So are you the prosecutor then? Prosecutor of the World? Tough job.
www.progressiveu.org/blog/americangirlinchina
VALID: well-grounded or justifiable : being at once relevant and meaningful b: logically correct
3: appropriate to the end in view : effective
(Webster Dictionary)
Not a prosecutor, more of a clarifier or educator.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -F.N.