One of the main arguments against gay rights is that its not natural. Recent studies suggest that animals (evolutionarily similar to humans) have been observed in homosexual action. In various primates, especially the great ape, are known to establish a social heirarchy within a habitat through sodomy; meaning, like in prison, at the most powerful are deemed as such when somebody drops the soap. Additionally, in Professor Janet Mann's upcoming book on homosexuality in animals she examines the relationships between male dolphins detailed on her website:
http://www.georgetown.edu/departments/psychology/faculty/mann.html
Gay penguins, and bulls have also been observed, especially a gay penguin couple at the Central Park Zoo. These penguins were furnished a fertilized eggs, hatched, and raised the offspring as their own. SO, there goes the argument that its not a natural practice.
Also, new research being done on human development may suggest that exposure to different levels of hormones, particularly androgens, before birth contributes to homosexual tendencies. Of course the results are not conclusive yet because not enough research has been done. But, this example as well as yours offers insight into the possible reality of biological homosexuality. Cheers.
Alex J.
==============================================
"Follow not me, but you!" -Friedrich Nietzsche
You mean, rigid gender roles and compulsory heterosexuality is not natural? It's craziness, I tell you.
I liked this sentence from a bulletin I saw once (grossly misquoted): "If you let gay couples marry, you open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior, including bestiality. Because as we know, a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract."
Hahah, cracks me up.
I don't know why, but "gay penguins" just cracks me up.
me too. Two little buttlers. How can they talk about homosexuality in animals? I mean maybe it's a one night stand, can you compare it to humans?
Actually, there were two male penguins in a zoo which, when presented with a penguin egg, actually incubated it, and then raised the child. I don't have the source handy. Penguins mate for life.
--Mike
I saw my dog, AND a Chimp on the internet.....eating his own poo!!!! I bet we could do a scientific study and prove that LOTS of animals eat their own poo, so it must be the right and proper thing for us to do!!!! LETS ALL EAT OUR OWN POO!!
Some people already do.
____________________________________________________________________
Denken. Nicht lesen.
...that demonstrates a rather serious lack of critical thinking skills. The argument that "homosexuality is a common behavior among many animals" is a rebuttal to the religiously-based nonsense that homosexuality is un-natural. In the context of christian theology, only man has the ability to act against his own nature, and the fact that animals do it demonstrates that it is not something that is inherent to the "inherently sinful" nature of man.
From a rational and scientific point-of-view, the argument merely points out that there are other species which demonstrate the same behaviors with no apparent negative consequences to their populations, and in fact the behavior can be objectively shown to benefit those populations in at least the vast majority of cases.
percivale
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"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
tounge in cheek....try to have a slight sense of humor...I am not a gay basher as you seem to think I am. You should try a little tolerance until you get to know someone.
I love how the most intolerant people SCREAM for tolerance while giving none.....Learn to lead by example. Two wrongs DO NOT make a right!!
Smile, There are some good folks in the world that have different opinions than you do....That is what makes the world go round, you know!
...and the "humor" of your comment seems lost on me. As for your "try a little tolerance" comment, I don't think that it is "intolerant" to defend oneself and one's family and friends from the abusive slings and arrows of those who actively seek to deny one's fundamental human rights. The very idea that we should be "tolerant" towards attitudes that are intolerant of the basic humanity of a whole class of people is so utterly mindless and hypocritical--I mean talk about really missing the point--that I am left to marvel at the gall of the suggestion.
That being said, I am sorry if I misinterpreted your comment. But, I just don't find this topic to be particularly humorous. The mean-spirited and often willful ignorance that pervades most anti-gay rhetoric is both tiresome and infuriating, and while you might have intended your comments to be sarcastic, they really didn't sound any different from the seriously offered rhetoric that they mimic.
percivale
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"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
It is intolerant to defend what I believe is a core principal of my religion. Is America not built on freedom of religion?
Homosexuals are not a class of people. Why must you try to seperate yourselves? Why are you so hyper-sensitive? As I have asked others...
I have people that I am friends with, people that I am enemies with....people enacting laws......against me daily! I fight for my rights, but don't call them names and expect the governemnt to step in and do something for me. I try to fight it the best way I can, but I know that they have the RIGHT to fight for their beliefs just as I do...I don't expect the government to silence them.....they believe the garbabge that they fight for...that is what makes America GREAT! People can believe as they want to, unimpended!
Speaking of mindless.....do you even understand the words that you throw about? To say that it is mindless to be tolerant of Christians......is Mindless.
Tolerance, as defined by Webster:sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own.
He's tolerant of Christians, so long as they mind their own business and don't interfere with his. Most people feel this way. I know I'm not a big fan of people coming up to me and asking if I've repented for my sins, and I believe in God. I can't imagine how annoying it gets for people that don't.
~C
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Asking him if he has repented of his sins....This is an open forum for people to voice their opinions, and that is all I was doing....
> As I don't think.....It is intolerant to
> defend what I believe is a core principal
> of my religion.
I think that it most certainly is intolerant to defend a "principal" that it based on ignorance and bigotry.
> Is America not built on freedom of religion?
Indeed. But freedom of religion is a two-way street, my friend. In order for you to beg respect for your religious beliefs, you have to be willing to offer that same respect to those whose beliefs are quite different than your own. If you want to treat gay people as second-class members if your religion, and if they are willing to participate voluntarily in your religion, then by all means, you can be as bigoted as you want.
Freedom of religion in this country is defined by the fact that our Constitution forbids the government from enacting laws that give any preference to the religious beliefs of our citizens. Both non-christians and gay people are (in principle, if not in practice) afforded the same rights as any other citizen. When your religious beliefs begin to spill over into the public square, where not everyone agrees and is not required to agree with your attitudes, then your belief that gay people aren't as "good" as everyone else become essentially irrelevant, and if you press those beliefs to the point where they begin to infringe upon the rights of gay and lesbian people, they actually become an unlawful expression.
> Homosexuals are not a class of people.
Factually incorrect. First of all, gay and lesbian people have been called a "class" by the Supreme Court of the United States. For example, in the case of Romer v. Evans (1996)...
Yet Amendment 2, in explicit terms, does more than repeal or rescind these provisions. It prohibits all legislative, executive or judicial action at any level of state or local government designed to protect the named class, a class we shall refer to as homosexual persons or gays and lesbians.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=...
> Why must you try to seperate yourselves?
Actually, we're not the one's separating ourselves. As with all forms of invidious discrimination, the line of segregation is drawn by those who wish to single out those who they perceive to be different.
> Why are you so hyper-sensitive?
It is possible that I am "hyper-sensitive" because I have lived for a very long time as a convenient target for the slings and arrows of ignorant, usually religious bigots who seem to think that they have some sort of "god"-given right to insert themselves and their beliefs into my personal life.
> As I have asked others...
>
> I have people that I am friends with, people that I
> am enemies with....people enacting laws......against
> me daily!
Everyone is subject to laws, and not everyone is going to be happy with every law that gets passed. But, have you ever been subject to a law that was designed to single you out for different treatment because of your identity?
> I fight for my rights, but don't call them names
> and expect the governemnt to step in and do
> something for me.
> I try to fight it the best way I can, but I know that
> they have the RIGHT to fight for their beliefs just
> as I do...I don't expect the government to silence
> them.....
I can't recall every even suggesting that the government should "silence" you. Something that a lot of very opinionated people seem to forget is that the right to have an opinion, and a right to express that opinion, also means that other people have those rights as well, and when you put your opinion out into the public square, someone else might just pull up a stump and respond to what you have to say.
> they believe the garbabge that they fight for...
> that is what makes America GREAT! People can
> believe as they want to, unimpended!
I really don't care what you believe, but I do care when those beliefs get vommited up all over my shoes. I have never suggested that you shouldn't be able to practice your religion or to live your own life in accordance with whatever set of beliefs that you wish. I just want you to keep your beliefs off of my back, and since your rights end where mine begin, I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to ask of you.
> Speaking of mindless.....do you even understand
> the words that you throw about? To say that it is
> mindless to be tolerant of Christians......is Mindless.
Perhaps it is, but since that isn't at all what I said I don't really understand the point of this criticism. What I said was that it was mindless to suggest that it was intolerant to stand up and defend oneself from an intolerant attitude that is being directed at you. To suggest that I was saying that it was "mindless to be tolerant of Christians" means that either a) you weren't reading very closely, or b) your trying to dishonestly twist the comment into something that you can martyr yourself upon.
> Tolerance, as defined by Webster:sympathy or
> indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from
> or conflicting with one's own.
Indeed. But I don't think that it is reasonable to suggest that one is being "intolerant" when acting is self-defense against the intolerance of others.
percivale
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"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
Unfortunately I don't have time in my busy life to go point by point with you. I'll hit the highlights....
Here is a quote directly from you "The very idea that we should be "tolerant" towards attitudes that are intolerant of the basic humanity of a whole class of people is so utterly mindless and hypocritical" How can you not see that you are saying you are intolerant?
As I ahve said elsewhere, the supreme court is overstepping its boundaries daily.....
And I love this....You say "But freedom of religion is a two-way street, my friend. In order for you to beg respect for your religious beliefs, you have to be willing to offer that same respect to those whose beliefs are quite different than your own" all the while telling me that you can't tolerate me because my beliefs are so totally different than yours.
I have never ONCE told any gay person that they can't be gay. I have never denied employment to a homosexual. I have never vomited anything on your shoes....this is a public forum, where discussions of personal opinions are discussed. I am not really sure why you are so mad at me. Am I not allowed to have my opinions? They are my beliefs. I have never fought to have laws enacted to remove your right to be gay. As far as I know, it is not illegal to be gay in this country....in fact, you can bitch and moan about being a target all your life, but I believe it is alot easier to be gay in AMerica than it used to be.....so what is the big complaint.
If you want to complain about something, my class of people are the ones (and if homosexuals can be a class, then so can smokers)that are losing rights. We are constantly looked down on....laws are being enacted daily around this country to restrict our freedoms simply because of our identity. Me, being a smoker, IS as much my identity as you being a homosexual is your identity.
Again, what have I done to you other than voice my personal opinion in an open forum.
Seperation of church and state (a made up juxtaposition of an innate law btw) has nothing to do with my personal beliefs spilling out into the public square. I can go and proclaim from the top of my lungs that homosexuals are going to hell (I would not do this)....that has nothing to do with the state. That is my freedom of speech. On the other hand, everyones wants to believe that you can teach homosexuality to school age kids......and there is no problem with that, huh?
> Unfortunately I don't have time in my busy
> life to go point by point with you. I'll hit the
> highlights....
You really shouldn't start fights that you aren't prepared to finish, but que sera, sera.
> Here is a quote directly from you "The very
> idea that we should be "tolerant" towards
> attitudes that are intolerant of the basic
> humanity of a whole class of people is so
> utterly mindless and hypocritical" How can
> you not see that you are saying you are intolerant?
First of all, I would like to remind you that it was you, not I, who brought up the question of "tolerance" in this discussion, and I thought I had explained that rather extensively, but as you wish...
Having an attitude of "tolerance" in a social context is meaningless if a society permits discriminatory behavior to flourish. Personally, I am very intolerant of ignornant and hateful attitudes, and I don't think I have ever suggested otherwise. I am simply pointing out that if your goal is "tolerance," then you have a funny way of showing it, and you really shouldn't be surprised when otherwise normally "tolerant" people get upset and respond to the intolerant things that you say about them.
Furthermore, it is one thing to be tolerant of ideas, but being "tolerant" of other ideas doesn't mean that you have to abandon your reason or to treat all ideas as if they are equally supported by the facts. When you say something that is poorly reasoned or objectively unsupportable, being "tolerant" doesn't mean that I have to pretend that your ideas make any more sense than they really do.
> As I ahve said elsewhere, the supreme court is
> overstepping its boundaries daily.....
And again I will ask you if you can cite and intelligently discuss an actual case relevant to the issue of LGBT rights in which the Court has ruled in an unprecedented fashion. Can you?
> And I love this....You say "But freedom of
> religion is a two-way street, my friend. In
> order for you to beg respect for your religious
> beliefs, you have to be willing to offer that
> same respect to those whose beliefs are quite
> different than your own" all the while telling
> me that you can't tolerate me because my
> beliefs are so totally different than yours.
I really don't understand why this is such a hard concept for conservative christians to grasp. I can tolerate you just fine. You have a right to believe in whatever you wish, and to live your life accordingly so long that as by doing so you do not violate anyone else's right to do the same. As a gay man, there is nothing about my beliefs which require me to seek you out or to try to convince you that you should be like me. In fact, I could not care any less about what you believe or how you live your life. But the instant that you stepped forward and exercised your right to express your opinion in a public discussion, you opened yourself (and your opinion) up for critical response. Now, the question then becomes whether or not you can intelligently defend your opinion, or not. So far, you haven't done a very good job of it.
> I have never ONCE told any gay person
> that they can't be gay. I have never denied
> employment to a homosexual.
Perhaps not, but you have stated that "homosexuals are not a class of people," which is a statement that carries a lot of implications in that regard.
> I have never vomited anything on your
> shoes....
I think that your comments comparing same-sex relationships to "animals throwing poo" certainly rise to the level implied by my metaphor.
> this is a public forum, where discussions of
> personal opinions are discussed. I am not
> really sure why you are so mad at me. Am I
> not allowed to have my opinions?
Of course you are. As you just said, "this is a public forum, where discussions of personal opinions are discussed." The freedom that you have to comment on the opinions of others works both ways, after all, and that means that your opinions are also subject to critique. Having a right to an opinion doesn't mean that you have the right to go unchallenged.
> They are my beliefs.
I don't deny that they are. But, just because you believe something doesn't mean that it makes sense. Either you can defend your opinion in a rational, objective fashion, or you cannot.
> I have never fought to have laws enacted to
> remove your right to be gay.
Perhaps, but you are promoting the same attitudes of ignorance and religious intolerance that we find at the basis of virtually all anti-gay rhetoric.
> As far as I know, it is not illegal to be gay
> in this country....in fact, you can bitch and
> moan about being a target all your life, but I
> believe it is alot easier to be gay in AMerica
> than it used to be.....so what is the big complaint.
That only became a fact very recently. Prior to the Supreme Court's decision in Lawrence v. Texas (2003), it was actually quite common for States to criminalize homosexuality. I lived for most of my adult life in a state that levied an up to twenty year sentence for the "crime" of having gay sex. Four years of not having to worry about the cops beating down the door and arresting us for having consensual sex with our adult partners in the privacy of our own homes has been a very refreshing taste of freedom, but there are still a great many areas in which the law still does not treat us with the equality that the Constitution guarantees to us as citizens.
> If you want to complain about something, my
> class of people are the ones (and if homosexuals
> can be a class, then so can smokers)that are
> losing rights. We are constantly looked down
> on....laws are being enacted daily around this
> country to restrict our freedoms simply because
> of our identity. Me, being a smoker, IS as much
> my identity as you being a homosexual is your
> identity.
Let me say first that I agree that smokers are getting a raw deal currently, and that I do not agree with most of the legislation that is currently being directed at them in the misguided attempts by the government to control their behavior. But, while I am sympathetic to your cause, it is not valid to compare homosexuality to smoking. Unlike homosexuality, smoking is a condition that is defined by behavior. Even if you try to argue that having an addictive personality is genetically based (and I wouldn't argue too strongly against such a suggestion), there is nothing about a genetic predisposition towards addiction makes smoking an essential part of their identity.
> Again, what have I done to you other than
> voice my personal opinion in an open forum.
You have done nothing but voice your opinion, it is true. And I have done the same. What you don't like is the fact that I have criticized your opinion for its obvious flaws. If you don't want to defend your opinion, you are certainly welcome to step away from this discussion. But for as long as you persist in promoting anti-gay ignorance and primitivism, you can expect that I (or someone like me) will be there to stand up for the truth.
> Seperation of church and state (a made up
> juxtaposition of an innate law btw) has nothing
> to do with my personal beliefs spilling out into
> the public square.
I might be more sympathetic to this arugment if so many of the anti-gay initiatives around this country weren't being advocated directly from the pulpits of far right conservative christian churches.
> I can go and proclaim from the top of my lungs
> that homosexuals are going to hell (I would not
> do this)....that has nothing to do with the state.
> That is my freedom of speech.
Fair enough. But just as you are free to say it, we are free to tell you how stupid you sound when you do.
> On the other hand, everyones wants to believe
> that you can teach homosexuality to school age
> kids......and there is no problem with that, huh?
Correct. There is no problem at all with teaching school aged kids (many of whom are gay themselves) the accurate, scientifically supportable facts about gay and lesbian people and their lives. There is a problem, however, in allowing sectarian interests to replace objective curriculums in our schools with thinly-veiled religious doctrines.
percivale
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"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
You want to call me stupid for my beliefs. That is the problem I have with you in particular. I have not called you 'stupid for being queer'. I ahve tried to be respectful, I have not made fun of your choice, but you feel it neccesarry to strike out at me personally and call me everything from stupid to primitive.
I am far above that, too bad you are not. I will not, however, allow my child to be taight that it is 'ok to be gay'. The schools overstep their bounds when they begin to promote a lifestyle choice...hetero or homo. School is for the 3 R's....
> You want to call me stupid for my
> beliefs. That is the problem I have
> with you in particular.
I don't think anything is served by pretending that your thoughts on this matter have been more intelligent than they actually were.
> I have not called you 'stupid for
> being queer'. I ahve tried to be
> respectful, I have not made fun of
> your choice,
Horseapples. Please refer back to your first post in this thread above...the one where you compared the idea of natural homosexuality to animals eating their own "poo." It is rather laughable that after making such an utterly offensive post you would now step back and try to play the polite martyr.
> but you feel it neccesarry to strike
> out at me personally
Tough. I take it very personally when people denigrate my relationship with hateful and ignorant rhetoric. Too many folks seem to think that they can talk about gay people in some sort of anonymous third-person context. But when you start commenting about "homosexuals," you are talking about real people.
> and call me everything from stupid
> to primitive.
I just call them like I see them. Your comments so far haven't demonstrated any particular degree of intelligence, and using a 2000+ year old religion to justify your bigotry is I think a primitive attitude essentially by definition.
percivale
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"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
you absolutely disgust me. The idea of a homosexual union makes me want to run and stick my finger down my throat until I puke. It is absolutely as disgusting as my dog eating his own feces.
It is homosexuals like you that want to be so rude that I have a problem with. I have friends that are homosexual that I get along with quite well, but you I could never tolerate. And, for the record, I could really care less if you rot in hell or not.....so take my advice, or don't. I have done what I feel is neccesary. Be gay or don't be....don't pull down your pants in front of me.
If you don't like what I said, tough. I can assure you that you will be ignored from here on out...
> you absolutely disgust me. The
> idea of a homosexual union makes
> me want to run and stick my finger
> down my throat until I puke. It
> is absolutely as disgusting as my
> dog eating his own feces.
Well, I guess this proves that your earlier denial of the intentions of your original comment in this series of exchanges was a lie. The truth will out after all it seems.
> It is homosexuals like you that
> want to be so rude that I have a
> problem with.
It really is laughable for you to adopt this position. First you compared my relationship to my husband with an animal eating its own poo, but now you want to take the attitude that people shouldn't be "rude" to you. I guess it just goes to show that the 11th commandment of christianity really is "thou shalt be a big old hypocrite."
> I have friends that are homosexual
> that I get along with quite well,
> but you I could never tolerate.
Somehow, I really doubt that you have ever honestly expressed the opinions that you have stated here to the faces of your "homosexual friends."
> And, for the record, I could really
> care less if you rot in hell or
> not.....
How very christian of you.
> so take my advice, or don't. I have
> done what I feel is neccesary. Be
> gay or don't be....don't pull down
> your pants in front of me.
Thanks for the advice. I'll file it away right next to the instructions that my cryptozoologist friend gave me regarding the most effective ways to trap a bigfoot.
percivale
-------------------------
"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
"you absolutely disgust me. The idea of a homosexual union makes me want to run and stick my finger down my throat until I puke. It is absolutely as disgusting as my dog eating his own feces."
And your hateful and judgmental attitude disgusts ME. Anyone reading this exchange can easily see who is being the rude and unreasonable person here. You're far from a beneficial advocate of religious belief with your attitudes. Typical.
If you don't believe it?!?!?!?