Am I the only one who's sick and tired of hearing people try to tell me how to live my life? Honestly, everyone needs to take a step back and shut the hell up before they come lecturing to me about my lifestyle.
First, a lot of atheists are starting to piss me off. Seriously, shut the fuck up! It's not your responsibility to prove to the world how bad organized religion is, or how stupid, or how brainwashed people are for following it. I'm tired of hearing it. "Oh, you believe in a religion, you're brainwashed and ..." No more - shut up. Leave me alone. You don't like a religion or follow the same political beliefs as a religion - well shouldn't the fact that you aren't a member of that religion be enough for you? Why make it your life's mission to see that religion destroyed?
Next, the Christians. Since when are Christians the only ones privy to the "knowledge" held by the Bible? Are they assuming the rest of us don't know how to read? Or maybe the Bible's pages magically become blank as soon as we try to open its covers. Seriously, people can read even though they aren't Christian. And I'm feeling pretty tempted right now to slap the next Christian who tries to tell me that I don't understand the Bible because I'm not Christian. I hate to tell you, but most of the people I know that have chosen a religion outside of Chrstianity did so because they read the Bible and disagree with it. It does not mean that they must have misinterpreted or didn't have the mental capacity to understand and follow its words.
Stop trying to diminish my intelligence because I don't believe in your stupid book! And if you don't want to hear my opinion on your book, then shut the fuck up and don't talk to me about your religion! Because I tell you what, if you try to tell me I'm going to burn in Hell, or that Jesus loves me, or whatever other message you think I need to hear out of your Bible, I'm going to tell you what I think in return. And chances are I know your Bible just as well as you do. So don't for a minute dismiss me as if I can't possibly understand something just because I refuse to follow it.
And don't for a minute think that I care about personal missions, claiming "oh but if we let them continue believing in the falsities" or "we have an obligation to spread the word" or any other such bullshit. And that's all it is - bullshit! "I can't let someone walk in ignorance because..." why not? If they're happy being ignorant then let them be. Last time I checked, there is no God - Christian or not - and no power or technology that gave any human being the power to judge and deam another person "unworthy". So just stop pretending that you're the one person in history that has the knowledge and power to wipe out a religion, or send people to Hell. Just shut up.
Now, I don't mind a good discussion. If you want to explain to me your religious lifestyle and what it means to you and how it's shaped your life, by all means, go for it. I do mind the cyclical nonsense that is going around. Find a lifestyle that's right for you. Live that lifestyle to the best of your ability. And shut the fuck up when you come across someone who doesn't follow your lifestyle. You're not going to change their minds, so stop trying. And when you decide to try and fail anyway - stop being immature about it and calling them ignorant.
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Hear hear!
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
Wow. Fanaile ranted.
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Soar high and laugh on the wind
~Fallon~
"If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them."- Thoreau
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/:
Wow...a Fanaile rant. I like it.
:-&
Clubs are stupid and it was total bullshit
That made me feel warm inside.
B-)
percivale
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
But you're going to hell, and you have to be warned, and....
I'll see you there :-) If all the people that get told they're going to hell really do go to hell it'll be fun.
"Excellence is the result of caring more than others think is wise, risking more than others think is safe, dreaming more than others think is practical, and expecting more than others think is possible."
I second that motion.
I don't need drugs - I have genetics. (me)
EEP! Scary Naomi.
Nicholas Aden
Self-Promotion
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Choice Picks
"You're not going to change their minds, so stop trying."
No way!
Loved the blog, but this is a war for the 'hearts and minds' of the future.
I try to push for one specific action or perspective at a time, as opposed to a broad dogma, but there is no reason to comunicate if you are not working toward a better future by spreading better ideas.
Isn't that the whole mission of progressiveU?
To see a world in a grain of sand
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
And eternity in an hour.
-William Blake
Perhaps I should clarify...
When I say "you're not going to change their minds, so stop trying" I wasn't referring to political spectrum ideals in any way. I meant that sitting there arguing with an atheist is not going to convince him or her that there is a God, and conversely, arguing with a Christian is not going to convince him or her that there is no God.
More often than not, choices such as religious belief systems are not decided upon overnight or in the course of a conversation. Regardless if they were researched choices or instilled from birth - you are not going to change their minds.
You can introduce new facts, and if done correctly they may begin listening to those facts and go from there to make a choice, usually only after doing much more research though - not just on your testimonial. If done incorrectly, you will push them further from your belief.
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"when you have nothing else to say, "Fwonk" is always the perfect thing."
"yeah well, fwonk"
--Devon
Fanaile Essence
...There was no room for discussion.
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"You can introduce new facts, and if done correctly they may begin listening to those facts and go from there to make a choice, usually only after doing much more research though - not just on your testimonial."
Faith isn't a matter of facts, but spirit and attitude. The headaches you refer to are the result of 'I'm right, You're wrong' rather than a spirit of serving the truth, and looking for the common ground where there is room for everyone. This is better served by the example you provide, rather than the strength or validity of any particular argument.
Fanaile, you provide this type example in abundance on nearly every post. For that...Fwonk you very much.
:?!)
To see a world in a grain of sand
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
And eternity in an hour.
-William Blake
but this one made me cheer! Go Fanaile! I agree...far too much bickering going on here and not enough thoughtful discussion and deep, well-thought-out debate. NO more God or anti-God stuff on this site would make me very happy!
Love ya,
Carrot
Really, I did.
I remember days that I, as a Christian, tried to change the mind of an atheist friend of mine, and just ended up frustrated and angry. You're right, we can't approach discussions of religion as a matter of "this-is-what-I-believe-and-therefore-it's-right"
people need to do research on the things they believe, and come to really understand exactly what it is that they're putting their faith in, and make the decision for themselves, and I, as a Christian, have no right to condemn someone who has done so.
However, I do reserve the right to call someone ignorant if they claim to believe one way and have no clue why they believe it, or what it really is that they're believing in.
Sincerely,
Sally
Outside of this site, I'm much the same way. I don't even want to hear it if you can't tell me why you believe in something or what led you to believe that in a sound manner (i.e., I read a shit load of books and it answered my questions rather than "the Bible says so".)
On this site, I just ignore them, lol.
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"when you have nothing else to say, "Fwonk" is always the perfect thing."
"yeah well, fwonk"
--Devon
Fanaile Essence
Well, I first thought that this post is not 'mature' enough to reply to, but seeing how many people seem to agree with you, I guess I might as well add my two cents for the sake of reason, or something.
First of all, you say that it is not right for someone to criticize other people's lifestyles. That is exactly what you are doing here by telling those with a mission to "shut up". Anyone see the contradiction here?
If you are only saying that people should not preach their values to others (which is what you are in a way doing in this very post) then you do have a point but you managed to turn it into an immature rant that has high potential for being misunderstood.
Just last night I was talking to coulple of Buddhist friends of mine. They were talking about the number 23 (sinse it was the date) and how it had appeared in the past to the other guy twice within a timeframe of a few minutes, after which he called his girlfriend who (for some unrelated reason) was mad at him. He drew the logical conclusion that 23 must be a bad omen for him.
I said frankly but not offensively (knowing my friends a little) that I think it's superstitious and I don't believe in bullshit like that; he seemed to aknowledge that his belief was in fact a superstition (he must have understood the concept) but added that he still held it.
Ok, In this case I would not go further (and I didn't). If someone recognizes the absurdity behind their beliefs or if the beliefs are harmless enough, then there seems indeed little we can/should do (unless we are educated in psychology and see a reason to act otherwise). But to point out absurdity, that is a different matter, to point out, for example, that the Bible is the work of ignorant men; we, as normal people, can do this and refer to one of Harris' or Hitchens' books, for example. Likewise, one can respond to this with a "Shut up!", one can, and in that case, we do need a new direction. But that is not to say that we should simply do as they say and 'shut up'.
Let's keep it cool and logical and we can discuss anything we want. There's never any need for rant.
Come now. Hitchens is amusing, but I'm sure you could find something less stereotypical.
Nicholas Aden
Self-Promotion
Click to send Hate Mail
Choice Picks
And I'm sure you could post replies with a point if you really wanted to. Anyways, it's hard to find an unattractive and outspoken intellectual who is as sympathetic as Hitchens ;)
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes -
Most of the people cheering me on here actually know me - so perhaps therein lies the difference
I advocate religious tolerance, researched decisions, and I believe every opinion is valid and deserves to be heard.
But there is a world of difference between two people calmly discussing their beliefs with each other, as you described, and what I'm talking about. I have no problem with discussion - I enjoy discussions. And I have them quite frequently. One of my best friends is Catholic, and I am Pagan - we talk about religion all the time and it never turns into an argument.
What I'm referring to in this rant (which, I'm sorry, I felt as if it was long overdue) are those people who constantly bombarde people with their beliefs. And more than just explaining their beliefs, but throwing in the whole "you're going to Hell!" phrase. And they do this regardless if the person they're talking to is even remotely interested in being "saved". Honestly, how is this constant bombardment of uninvited rhetoric going to convince someone to find Jesus? If anything when they start on me it turns me off from the idea of listening about Jesus (and then I can laugh at them and tell them that I'll be seeing them in Hell because they sent me there and they're not supposed to judge).
Now, when I say that these people who have cheered me know me, it's because I've been known to advocate for several religions and for people to be able to say what they believe. Sadly, we seldom get a post in which someone explains what the thought of sin means to them or how this belief shaped their lives - instead we get crap like "all these people are going to Hell and they shouldn't be allowed to eat Jello because I don't like them". I'm paraphrasing, of course, no one has ever actually said that before... but I hope you catch the meaning ;)
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"when you have nothing else to say, "Fwonk" is always the perfect thing."
"yeah well, fwonk"
--Devon
Fanaile Essence
Hey hey now.. we've had a handful of good posts about people's religious beliefs. Like mine, and... tabias'? Someone's Wiccan beliefs, anyway.
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
I'm sorry - :'((
You're right, we do get some - at least a handful - that are really just there to encourage discussion (rather than debate) and share ideas (rather than convert).
Those are among my favorites...
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"when you have nothing else to say, "Fwonk" is always the perfect thing."
"yeah well, fwonk"
--Devon
Fanaile Essence
Ranting is good for the soul. It helps one clear the head and allows for that one to then reapproach the situation and look for and work towards solutions without all of the frustration that was present prior to ranting.
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Soar high and laugh on the wind
~Fallon~
"If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them."- Thoreau
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*applause* Very nice, very nice indeed.
I have to say I share your feelings. I believe a, and you believe z. We can discuss why we believe it, what it means to us, and better understand each other that way, but trying to convert each other just won't work. They're opposite ends of the spectrum.
My view on religious decision is something like this: Your spiritual journey through life is like a class in school. Each different religion is like a different teacher. Just like teachers all have different ways of teaching you the same things, so do different religions. And just like no one teaching style works for everybody, no one religion is right for everybody. What does work for each individual person is different. It's just like school: Johnny is an auditory learner. If you give him reading assignments only, he'll learn, but not as well as he would if you taught him with lectures and videos, and other auditory aid. Religion (or lack thereof) is the same. You can't force it, end of story.
I don't need drugs - I have genetics.
I find that the reason that the assumption that non-Christians cannot understand or properly interpret the bible is that the outspoken ones who read the bible do so for "evidence" against us. If not that, then it's sometimes a case of one meaning being possible, but when you check with context, the meaning is totally different. For example,
I've heard the "how is 'eye for an eye; tooth for a tooth' a Christian attitude?", followed by citing the verse where that is found. They use this verse in order to put Christians on the defensive and catch us off guard, because-ironically-most of us don't read it enough. However, the context of that verse makes the purpose perfectly clear: If a father-to-be abuses his pregnant wife and the child is damaged as a result, the punishment is to either pay a fee determined by the father-in-law(I think so... I need to check again), or to pay by being physically punished. If an eye was damaged, the father-to-be would have to have his eye damaged.
If you're able to read the bible with an attitude of learning, whether it be to learn about God, how Christians think, or even if you think that all you're doing is reading fiction, then more power to you. However, if you read the bible seeking to find evidence proving Christianity wrong, hypocritical, or with any other attitude of negativity, then you probably won't get the same thing out of it.
Actually, the 'eye for an eye' usually deals with payment for damage to a slave. If you cause a slave to lose their eye, you have to pay for the value of the eye, whether it be in work lost, or whatever.
I'm a non-Christian, btw.
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
Thank You.
Here's someone who doesn't "know" you who agrees with you!
We are all entitled to opinion, the right to express that opinion, and the right to debate or persuade others, but some people need to know when to call it quits. People who try to shove religion down your throat are going to accomplish nothing except go against their lofty views. If you wanna show how sweet Christianity is....don't show how sweet Christianity is! We all hate a know it all!
And unless I'm mistaken, the Bible was written by men, not God, so it can have flaws. Or be incredibly biased. Ever wonder about that whole "King James Edition" stuff? Yeah, even if the original manuscript was perfection itself, it's still had a heck of a long time to be changed by greedy conniving people.
Except... Christianity isn't the only thing to blame. Some atheists are just as bad.
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
Just let me say that your rant is the same as a Christian coming up to you and telling you that you are going to hell, or whatever. It doesn't change attitudes or beliefs when people rant. All it does it polarize: some agree with you, but those who don't are extremely offended.
I'd like to add my perspective as a Christian to this discussion. I do agree with you that "You're not going to change their minds..." sometimes. Some people just aren't ready to hear the truth (and, yes, there is such a thing, otherwise, you shouldn't even bother telling them to leave you alone). I approach evangilism very carefully; I only share my beliefs with people that I feel God is leading me to. Usually, they listen.
Now, on your assertion that people claiming a divine mission is "bullshit", I must disagree. Who are you to say that they do not, just as who are they to say that you're ignorant or stupid? Why is it so hard for you to respect what they believe? If it offends you, then there are better ways do deal with it than write a rant that insults basically everybody.
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you have." - Barry Goldwater
"... the ostensible means [diversity] of acheiving a desired end [equality] had become the end itself." - Clarence Thomas
You know, you remind me of one of my friends.
Anyway, you're a COLLEGE SENIOR?
that's AMAZING!!! (i want to congratulate you, first of all, for making it that far [since i'm only a high school junior])
You know it's true that people do those things, and it's really a shame that they do. I understand why you'd be mad. It's also very true that one does not need to be christian to be able to read the bible and understand it, and nobody should push any kind of ideas on anyone.
I think it's ok to hear about people and their beliefs, and it's also ok to express one's beliefs, but trying to flat-out convert someone or get them to fully agree is just insane.
I know this is probably a relatively old blog, but i'd just like to ask you about your beliefs, i'm guessing you're not an atheist...
nevermind, i scrolled up and realized i misread. Anyway..
just share your thougths, i'm willing to listen (*read, in this case)
~Bookworm62591♥