3,970.. Yep, that's the number.
I'm sure you guessed it. That's how many American soldiers which have been killed since the start of the war in Iraq.
"One death is a tradgedy, a million is a statistic." said Joseph Stallin
I guess that's who George Bush aspires to be.
I don't know when you think about it 3,970 people died for what?
Don't give me that bull about how we were there to 'stabilize Iraq' and 'terrorism'. Some places will never be stable and the world will always have 'terror'. We imposed democracy in Iraq already, the least the US can do now is to slowly pull out of Iraq. I mean I'm not talking about miracles but at least start taking more troops home and stop sending more out.
I can understand sending troops to a war worth fighting for. But seriously, the war in Iraq? What a joke.
How many people have to die before we pull the troops out of Iraq? Why do we have to wait till the next President to pull out the troops. Not to mention the major Republican candidate (John McCain) wants to send MORE TROOPS to Iraq.
Some POW......
Wants us all to suffer just because he did.
I don't know there's something wrong with this picture. I just hope the next president won't be another cow boy.
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If the troops wouldnt have gone over there and gotten the terrorist leaders where do you think our country would be right now? In ashes....
In better standing with most of the world, including the Islamic world. Instead, we just breed hatred towards us.
"What a man does for pay is of little significance. What he is, as a sensitive instrument responsive to the world's beauty, is everything!"
H. P. Lovecraft
so running and hiding whenever anything dangerous happens is obviously the best thing to do...
No, attacking the right enemy. Which we did, the Taliban, but then we went after Iraq for no reason.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
And now we're so overextended that we can't finish the job we started in Afghanistan.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
Not many people see that. I'm glad someone else sees that!
How many Kurds died under Hussein's order in the Iraq-Iran War?
Approximately 180,000. He used both nerve agents and poison gas to wipe out populations comprized of mostly women and children.
"The campaign has been legally characterized as genocidal in nature" ("Saddam Hussein" wiki)
Genocide, brother, genocide. The man was a disgusting excuse for a human being. The UN is too PC to do anything about these people. Yes, the US dug itself into a hole by going after Iraq, and I do not support any military action in Iran. We torn that country to shreds when we took Hussein out of power, and if WW2 taught us anything, you don't destroy a country and then leave it to fend for itself.
And I'll bet you complain about our government not doing anything in Darfur, too.
No, if WW2 taught us anything, it's don't destroy a country, get rid of a popular leader, impose ridiculous sanctions on it, and then ignore all signs of impending war.
"What a man does for pay is of little significance. What he is, as a sensitive instrument responsive to the world's beauty, is everything!"
H. P. Lovecraft
ok, so basically,
don't destory a country
Oh, oops, we've have bombarded most of their major cities and have wreaked havok on their people, both radicals and civilians. We've pretty much destroyed their way of life, and, by extension, their country.
get rid of a popular leader
Where did you get that Wilhelm II was a popular leader? I'm not sure anyone batted an eye at the fack that he was out of power after World War 1.
impose rediculous sanctions on it
Their people are fleeing! 35% of Iraq's children are orphans! ("Iraq War" wiki) 68% of Iraqis don't have access to safe drinking water and 28% of the population is malnurioused. These are equatable to the rediculous conditins the Germans were set with after WW1.
then ignore all signs of impending war.
And this is the only reason radicals have not yet taken control of Iraq the same way the Nazis did Germany after WW1: the US is there, attempting to calm the torrents that want more war. Most people there want to get back to their lives, but its the same people that are blowing up mosques that are going to make a leap at getting the government if we pull out over night. We have to help them rebuild. If we leave, they will be a greater hell to pay than there was in the begining of WW2.
1- yeah, we've failed at number 1.
2- I'll concede the point.
3- Yeah, and before we invaded Iraq, we had sanctions against them. And, I don't see what you're saying. You seem to be supporting the claim that we've generally screwed up Iraq.
4- I don't think that's a parallel. The Iraqi's want us out. No half-intelligent person is going to think that attacking us after we leave is going to not make us come back. And we don't have to help them rebuild, certainly not like we are now. The presence of our army is aggravating things, not helping. Even with the surge, all we seem to be doing is maintaining a status quo, not making any progress.
"What a man does for pay is of little significance. What he is, as a sensitive instrument responsive to the world's beauty, is everything!"
H. P. Lovecraft
Oh really?
i forgot to look up how many crying mothers loved Sadam, before and after he tortured their kids to death...
I think my point was a little lost. My point was that it wasn't an appropriate parallel.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
I hate GWB as much as the next guy, and I definately don't think that we ever should have gone into Iraq, yet it's a complicated issue. We can't sudenly stop and pull out. I would also hardly call it murder, as there was no personal vendetta. It is sad though.
you *** has no clue in what the hell is going on in this world. lets think for a second, if we pull out, we leave the country in shables, ripe for take over by some theoctratic (religous) radical group that hates us. we pull out, we just screw ourselves over. and soldiers dies because in the end it was their choice, accept for a few who where forced to join the military, because the choose to join and the choice to put their life on the line. you should have the upmost respect for them because they are protecting you.
***Comment edited by mvenus929 on Feb 23, 2008 for TOS violation.
you *** has no clue in what the hell is going on in this world. lets think for a second, if we pull out, we leave the country in shables, ripe for take over by some theoctratic (religous) radical group that hates us. we pull out, we just screw ourselves over. and soldiers dies because in the end it was their choice, accept for a few who where forced to join the military, because the choose to join and the choice to put their life on the line. you should have the upmost respect for them because they are protecting you.
Lets think for a second a remember how the hell we got there. We can slowly pull out, i'm sure the people of Iraq aren't little kids. It's THEIR COUNTRY NOT OURS. We already screwed ourselves over. I don't want anyone to protect me... You missed the point entirely, go back to your finger painting and don't look back.
+mspin
you can protect yourself?
Your pretty funny boy.
And just because theyre not all kids doesnt mean that they can keep foriegn terrorists from screwing up their nation...
I don't understand why people don't want the troops over in Iraq. Do people really know why we are fighting, well i do. they are terrorist, they want to control other country's, they want everything. and in order for them to get what they want they kill. would you rather have the troops fighting in America? Would that be better for you sense there home but still fighting? No that wouldn't be better. there fighting for us to stay alive, they risk there lives for us. so tell me would you rather not fight then have Iraqi's come over here and kill us? tell me what you think?
I don't understand why people don't want the troops over in Iraq. Do people really know why we are fighting, well i do. they are terrorist, they want to control other country's, they want everything. and in order for them to get what they want they kill. would you rather have the troops fighting in America? Would that be better for you sense there home but still fighting? No that wouldn't be better. there fighting for us to stay alive, they risk there lives for us. so tell me would you rather not fight then have Iraqi's come over here and kill us? tell me what you think?
Listen to your malfunctioned sentence, "they are terrorist". LMAO You kids are so easily molded into what the government said. Get your head out of your ass and look at what's going on. It's their own country, we put a democracy there, now our job is done. We don't own Iraq, what happens there is their problem. WHAT IS STOPPING SOME TERRORIST COMING INTO AMERICA LMAO. IT HASN'T STOPPED THEM, IT ANGERED THEM. Now, because of us we have MORE terrorists then BEFORE THE WAR IN IRAQ. There have been numerous accounts where the CIA has stepped in so a terrorist wouldn't blow up a train. There was a recent tried terrorist attack by hijacking planes over seas. You think the war in Iraq is stopping them? LMAO You kids are so silly. Sure you listen to the news media, but you you have to understand that 99 percent of the news media (CNN, FOX, MSNBC) is bullshit.
*****Please respond to this post confronting your ignorance, I would really like to see more propaganda that you have to say********
+mspin
Your comments are kind of...abrasive. There's no need to be so insulting. It's generally frowned upon and you could be edited if it continues. Personal attacks violate the ToS.
"What a man does for pay is of little significance. What he is, as a sensitive instrument responsive to the world's beauty, is everything!"
H. P. Lovecraft
so when i get attacked, i can just sit there and be like, "OKAY, thanks for straight out calling me an idiot." :)
so people can say this, "***" and don't get a comment saying their post is "abrasive".
i'm tired of being attacked and nothing happening.
it's time to take matters into my own hands.
+mspin
***Comment edited to remove reference to TOS violation. mvenus929, Feb 23, 2008.
If you feel a comment is offensive, then flag it or say something. Also, there is a difference between saying an idea is stupid and a person is stupid.
I was actually thinking saying something about 'every other...", but I wasn't (and am still not) sure exactly what to say. I'll say to them tone it down. I'll say to you, keep it out of the personal realm.
"What a man does for pay is of little significance. What he is, as a sensitive instrument responsive to the world's beauty, is everything!"
H. P. Lovecraft
No, they got a ToS Violation notice, which is much worse than a comment saying 'your post is abrasive', since enough of the former will get you banned from the site.
We're busy people, and don't have the time to go through every single comment and blog posted on the site. We try our best, but we have lots of other things to do as well. I mean, if you'd rather, we could put up a moderation queue, and you'd have to wait hours for your comment to pop up.....
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
Want the highest rated list to change? RATE those blogs, then!
Be careful with being abrasive. I'm abrasive and I push my limit of violations weekly if not daily occasionally. If you're going to insult someone, do it so that only someone of higher intelligence would understand it. Most of the mods will get it and some others will get it and we'll laugh uncontrolablly at our screens. Trust me it works better because you don't get flagged most of the time, haha.
If they were terrorists already, we didnt make them any madder.
Oh and since you simply dissagree with whoevers in authority that automaticaly makes you right? (not)
And isnt the CIA interdicting these attaks sign of progress? oh, didnt think of that did you.
your calling CNN a conservatively biased news report? your insane
I agree with this post 100%. Being an isolationist I don't think we should have ever invaded Iraq. I don't think we should invade anywhere. How can we be so quick to "correct" the problems in other countries when we can't even correct the problems at home? We need to keep our noses out of foreign conflicts and focus on our homeless, our social security, our economy. You know, maybe if we stopped playing dictator we wouldn't have so many terrorist groups plotting against us.
[Krst]
You know, maybe if we stopped playing dictator we wouldn't have so many terrorist groups plotting against us.
You do realize they attacked us first, right? And not only in 2001. They were attacking us during Clinton's years, and Clinton chose to ignore them. If he had decided to be a man and do something about it, September 11 would not have happened.
You do realize they attacked us first, right? And not only in 2001. They were attacking us during Clinton's years, and Clinton chose to ignore them. If he had decided to be a man and do something about it, September 11 would not have happened.
You do realize that Al Queda was our ALLY during the Clinton administration. We gave them weapons to attack Iran. But what I think you're talking about was later in the administration years.
And if you don't remember correctly, during the Persian Gulf War we had Saddam surrounded but, COLIN POWELL said to widthdrawl the troops. Don't go hating on Colin because he WAS PART OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION as well lmao.
+mspin
If you're going to make completely false and unsubstantiated statements like "Al Queda was our ALLY during the Clinton administration", at least give us a link to how you 'know' this information. Go ahead and Google search it. Besides conspiracy theories, you're not going to find anything.
No, Al Qaeda was never Clinton's ally, unless this is how you treat your friends:
Beginning in 1996, the Clinton Administration persuaded allies to arrest members of Al Qaeda and ship them to a third country, without legal process, in a move called 'rendition.'(http://www.nthposition.com/evolvingintelligence.php)*
Isn't that lovely? Clinton breaking Haebus Corpus. Beautiful.
(*Note that I provided a link to where I got this information, so I didn't just willy nilly make it up)
Yes, Colin Powell said to withdraw troops because the war was over. Do you understand? Termina. Finis. Dick Cheney was quoted in 1992 as giving a reason for why they didn't stay there.
"I would guess if we had gone in there, I would still have forces in Baghdad today. We'd be running the country. We would not have been able to get everybody out and bring everybody home." ("Gulf War" wikipedia.org) He also states the reason that GHW Bush opted to leave. "...the President made the decision that we'd achieved our objectives and we were not going to go get bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq.". GHW Bush would have been out of office in less than a year. He at least acknowledged that he didn't have the time to dawdle around.
And really: lmao? Grow up.
I was hoping someone would say that. Kid, if you really have a dispute of what I say then please google it. If you really have a hard time searching on the internet, I will always ned a hand.
Yes, Colin Powell said to withdraw troops because the war was over. Do you understand? Termina. Finis. Dick Cheney was quoted in 1992 as giving a reason for why they didn't stay there.
"I would guess if we had gone in there, I would still have forces in Baghdad today. We'd be running the country. We would not have been able to get everybody out and bring everybody home." ("Gulf War" wikipedia.org) He also states the reason that GHW Bush opted to leave. "...the President made the decision that we'd achieved our objectives and we were not going to go get bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq.". GHW Bush would have been out of office in less than a year. He at least acknowledged that he didn't have the time to dawdle around.
Yes, Colin Powell said to withdraw the troops because HE SAID THE WAR WAS OVER. We had Al Qaeda surrounded and he called the troops off, who's fault was that? Do you understand? I don't think you do, that the US called it off thus never finishing the job of killing Saddam. Ever think there was a reason for this? Ever read between the lines? Obviously not. Now you give this useless quote of the "shouldawouldacoulda" after the fact. Come on now, let's be serious. After sons started dying in Vietnam everyone turned against the war. And said comments. Hell, I could have said that quote that you said Cheney did. I don't understand how that rendered useless quotation has any bearing on this conversation.We never achieved our objectives. We didn't kill Saddam for a reason buddy.
Kids these days. You need to understand that not everything is black and white.
If you're going to make completely false and unsubstantiated statements like "Al Queda was our ALLY during the Clinton administration", at least give us a link to how you 'know' this information. Go ahead and Google search it. Besides conspiracy theories, you're not going to find anything.
Buddy, who did we supply guns to when we wanted to attack Iran? hmmmmm... AL QUEDA. Saddam was the one invading Iran in 1980. Would we give weapons to our enemy? Obviously not. That has no sensical value what-so-ever. You obviously misunderstood me when I called them our Allies--I should be careful on my diction. By Ally I meant friend. Not like an official sanction or what ever you think. I don't care what you say, but if you're giving someone weapons you obviously trust them not to screw you over with them.
Wow, kids these days...
ROTFL (is that better for you), thanks for making my day amigo. :)
+mspin
Alright, I'm going to attempt to reply to this, though I'm not exactly sure what is what, being that you made everything italicized. Future note: If you screw up HTML, either fix it, or go back in and undo it.
You say that I need to see the difference between black and white, and then you go on to say that if they're not our enemy, they're our friend? I'm sensing some hypocrasy here.
And since I seen unable to find any google results talking about Al Qaida's role in the Persain Gulf War or about Al Qaida being our ally during the Clinton administration (which you seem to be so adamant about), why don't you prove me wrong and give me some links? I don't want you to reply to this unless you have links specifially saying something to that affect for either of those. Don't tell me to Google, because I have, as I originally stated. I refuse to keep going around in circles with someone who wont back up their claims.
If you read the Wikipedia entry about it, the Persian Gulf War was between Iraq and coalition forces run by the UN. Its not in the UN's current business to be taking people out of power. As GHW Bush said (I can't find any quotes from Colin Powell about the topic, sorry. Why don't you provide one?) "the war was over, it was time to leave", it wasn't like he had the ability to stay there and take these people out. It was a war headed by the UN, not by Colin Powell or Dick Cheney or anyone else you want to blame. It was the UN's decision (and, unlike today, people actually obeyed the people in power, unlike GW Bush is doing now). The UN can't willy-nilly run around and take people out. Their purpose is for peace, not to start more wars or get in the middle of anything (note their failures in Africa).
And don't you dare start comparing Vietnam to the Gulf War. Don't you even dare. People die in war, thats an unfortunate but inherent fact. Someone knew when to call it quits in the Persian Gulf War; I wish the same had been true in Vietnam.
...that the US called it off thus never finishing the job of killing Saddam
We know the US didn't call it off, the UN did. The whole thing about Bush deciding to leave too was that we could either a.) leave with everyone else like a responsible, civilized country, or b.) we could be cavalier and stay, alone, and become the laughing stock of the West. That was back when the public's opinion was actually thought about (ie before GW Bush's Iraq War).
Go ahead and look into why we supported Iraq in the Iraq-Iran War. It was considered the lesser of the two evils. Iran felt that we had betrayed them and were still pretty upset about it. So we gave weapons to Saddam, not Al Qaida. I don't think even Clinton was a big enough idiot to be supplying weapons to terrorist organizations. (Of course, you could always provide a link to a website that says otherwise....)
---
Ok, completely unrelated, but this really bugs me. Its not the fact that you called me a kid (I'm over the 5-year name calling tactic, trust me), but then the fact that you continue to do the stupid teenager thing of 'lmao' and 'rotfl'. And, to make it priceless, when I told you to grow up, you resorted to a different acronym. Take some pride in yourself and stop trying to act 'gansta'. Its really not as cool as you seem to think it is.
Al Quida was our ally during the Cold War. We funded Bin Laden and the Taliban when Russia invaded Afghanistan and we trained and armed them to fight against the Soviet Union.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
I was hoping it really wouldn't come down to this.
I didn't know saying 'lmao' or 'rotfl' is a "stupid teenager" thing to do? I can't help it that your ignorance makes me laugh. I was just expressing how I felt. I do have pride in myself. So much pride that I'm not even going to waste time arguing with you. Why should I own every point some person says to me while they think I'm trying to act "gangsta" by saying lol.
But then I think to myself how useless it is to let ignorance succeed in society--it gets by everyday. So I will counteract every point you made. :)
IF you're going to try to insult me atleast be right. You must be blind because everything is not italicized. Here's a link to a screen shot. Please don't tell me that I screwed up HTML, i've been working with it for over 10 years. Try using a better browser that can handle this website, and web 2.0 for that matter. Since you have a fetish over links here is a link to Mozilla Firefox
Future Note: If you're going to insult someone please now what you're talking about. :D
P.S. The hypocrisy*(the correct spelling) I depicted is the hypocrisy of the United States. I agree it's hypocrisy but it is what our country has done. It's not how I feel.
You seem to be unable to find any google results talking about Al Qaida's role in the Persain Gulf War. This is because I was talking about Saddam's Republican Guard(here's your wonderful link). I don't want you to reply to this comment unless you read a website about how to type in search terms. You were right though, I made a mistake, I really meant during the Cold War as Jsaj stated below.
Once again. GHW Bush had Saddam's surrounded practically. He knew if it lasted one more day then Saddam would have lost power. Colin Powell said to withdrawal the troops. Here's your link wow. You're 0 for 3 already. If you're going to diss the source, here are a bunch of links saying Powell wanted the withdrawal. I wish I could see the look on your face right now. Being shown up by a 'gangsta' like myself who says 'LMAO' and 'ROTFL'. It had nothing to do with the UN and everything to do with the US. Plus even if you want to further your UN point. The US practically runs the UN, "Since 1991 the United States has been the world's dominant military, economic, social, and political power." (excerpt from Wikipedia)
Don't you dare tell me not to make comparisons to anything. Don't you even dare. I was just saying 'Vietnam' as a randomly picked example(I know wars have death in common), so don't get all disgruntled because I mentioned Vietnam. Vietnam however is a good comparison to the war in Iraq. Due to this great comparison, it kind of proves that this war is useless. Read about the comparisons here(another blog for another time). So don't make it seem like there ARE no comparisons to Vietnam in contemporary times.
This debate has caused my job to become that of doing your homework. I will not further this anymore due to the face that this is going no where. LMAO.
<3
Good Day,
+mspin
I can truly say I am pleased to see people here that think we should keep out of other countries business, and mind our own. I agree with both you and the blog poster. There are so many stuff that the U.S. government should worry about before foreign business. And I don't even remember the whole reason why we're sending more than enough troops to the middle east. (I don't this the president can use 9/11 for a reason anymore.) I saw this at a store some where, and I come to find it very true, "Operation Iraq Liberation"-It's all about the OIL."
AgehA
aw cute. lets just leave everyone else to their own buisness.
Have you learned anything from history yet?
maybe i do agree a little. but that doesn't mean the troops waisted there lives. Fine you know what lets pull our noses out of other country's, when they start making nukes to launch at us and we don't know it. lets just let them kill us.
My dad is in iraq 7 months out of the year. since 9/11 he has not been able to visit me, mot even for my birthdays the only reason he is over there right now is to repair there country and teach them how to fight. because of it he wont beable to see me grad. from high school. sometimes life is not fair and yeah alot of people died but atleast we are helping them get back on there feet. we just got to learn to grit our teath and take what deserve.
*~*K i M b U r L e E*~*
I feel your pain.
Its interesting, the people with the closest relationship to the war, and the people that have been over there are nearly all positive about how things are headed, and its the people that have NO experience with what theyre talking about that are against it.
I'm sure you meant "some" people have no experience with what they're talking about are against it. Because if you really meant that all the people with no experience with what they're talking about are against it, it might not be true. And I understand what you're saying,,,there are some idiots that just oppose when they don't even know what's really going on.
But many people that have experience that I know are actually against wars. And not all of them are for it, even some soldiers. After they came back, they were exposed to reality and started to question if it was really the right thing or not. I'm sure you know this, but war isn't pretty. No matter what the media says, war is not pretty or beautiful.
AgehA
"According to Unicef, the United Nations Children’s Fund, 4,000 more children under five are dying every month in Iraq than would have died before Western sanctions were imposed. Over the eight years that these sanctions have been in place, 500,000 extra children under five are estimated to have died"
http://www.zmag.org/edwinthalliday.htm
http://www.geocities.com/iraqinfo/index.html?page=/iraqinfo/sanctions/sa...
That was the result of sanctions as opposed to ocupation after the first gulf war. So being strong enough to take charge of the mess we made costs 4,000 in 7 years. About 135 young men per year die out of 100,000 of normal peace time causes in the age group we sent to Iraq. We have slightly over 200,000 coalition forces in Iraq, so almost half of the dead would not have been saved if the war never happened.
So in essence the cost of occupation was 1/250th as high as the cost of sanctions in human lives, and children rather than soldiers paid the price. That doesn't justify the war, but then there were tens or hundreds of thousands more Iraqis killed by Sadam as he suppressed the southern Marsh Arabs, and the northern Kurds after the last war. The cost of this conflict seems cheap compared to the possible outcome if successful. Pulling out right away is getting closer to being a sane policy, but it has not always been. After the first war a higher price was paid to accomplish less.
Don't Iraqi lives mean as much as American ones?
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
Okay, kid, you kind of ticked me off here. Half the time you have to no facts to back up your points. My family is over there fighting for you to stay safe and sound over. It's them being over there that allows you to be talking the shit that I just read. You think this war is for no good reason, lets see you strap up in uniform and go protect your country. I bet you couldn't handle it. You'd crack after the first day. My uncles and friends are off fighting to keep this country free and help keep other groups from taking over over there and then reattacking us. I agree with whoever said before, "would you rather them be on american soil?" That's a good question, how would you and you ill informed tongue like them to be fighting in your back yard. It's people like you who make me sick. If you don't like what this country is doing, then leave. Go live in Iraq for a while then come back and complain.
dude are you serious?
why would i strap on a helmet if i think this war is stupid in the first place?
i do think the war is for no good reason..
stop being psychologically owned by our government buddy.
lmao
i couldn't handle it you're right, why would i want to?
i would rather have these "terrorists" on "our soil"
go ahead.
let them in
ill be sure to have them over for dinner and tea.
+mspin
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/weezyf
I hate when people respond with that "fighting for YOUR freedom" bullshit.
“I hope the departure is joyful and I hope never to return.” - Frida Kahlo
I'm gonna betch slap the dumb outta you