Despite the logical flaw known as Circular Logic (the assumption as a premise that the Conclusion is true), Biblical Arguments are very commonly used in debate to uphold faith. In response to that, I am going to the source. I am looking at the bible, chapter by chapter and writing an atheistic commentary to it.
This is the first part of the Atheist Commentary and is looking at Genesis, Chapter 1, verses 1-5, the first day. Before I start, I do have a few comments and requests.
First, I am using a translation that I got on line from BibleGateway.com.
Second, I am aware of the fact that I will probably never finish this. I have a lot of time on my hands right now.
Finally, I am discussing a very limited part of the bible, just a few verses, and I will ask if we can keep the discussion on that portion as much as possible. Thank You.
Genesis 1, 1-5
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
My Commentary
The first question that we must ask ourselves is “in the beginning of what?” Another question is “Where was god before the beginning?” How could god exist before the start? There was nothing. If god existed, there would have been something and then it would not be the beginning. As far as I am concerned, this is a big question that needs to be addressed. God is something if he (that’s the pronoun I’m going to use) exists. If he came from nothing, why can’t the Universe have come from nothing? If he’s eternal, why can’t existence be eternal? If something created him, what? And where did that something come from?
Now on the first day, god is said to have made a lot of things. In verse 1, he created the heaven and the earth. Then, in verse two, the earth is unformed and all water. Verse 3, god makes light. In verse 4, he divides dark from light. In verse 5, he names dark night and light day. Then there is an evening and a morning. This is the first day. So, there’s a lot to cover.
First off, what is meant by heaven? Is it meant as the dwelling place of god? Is it meant as a place of reward for the righteous? Is it meant as the sky? I’m going to go with sky for a few reasons. The first is that Judaism isn’t quite so concerned with the afterlife. Therefore, the Jews would not be writing about heaven as a place of reward. One must further assume that, if god already existed, his dwelling place would also already exist. Mostly, it just makes sense. God is creating the Earth and that which is above the Earth, the sky.
Personally, I find this to problematic. What, after all, is the sky? It isn’t referring to the atmosphere. That wasn’t known about. It can’t be referring to what we know as space. Once again, this was unknown. Little was known about the Universe at the time. So, let us assume that the sky is thought of as sort of a shield surrounding the Earth. What does the heavens include? The stars? The planets? The Sun? The Moon? I could ramble on about this, but see little point. Suffice it to say, this statement is a bit questionable.
As for the creation of the Earth, this is also questionable. The earth certainly didn’t exist before the Sun, as it is unquestionably described here does not gel with our knowledge of astronomy. My understanding is that the non-solar bodies of our system were created by the debris left over from the creation of the Sun.
OK we also have a problem with the whole watery unformed Earth. Things are rather warm on Earth for quite a while. After all, rocks hurtling through space that crash into each other cause quite a bit of heat. Certainly too much heat for water to exist. Only solids with very high melting points could exist. The same goes for liquids. Water evaporates at far too low a temperature to exist in this stage of Earth’s existence.
The next to verse of Genesis is also off. The good, old “Let there be light line. Light, comes from the Sun. The Sun had to have existed for Earth to have existed. Therefore, we have light already.
Now, in the next verse of Genesis, god makes separates dark from light. Of course, even if the Earth did not always rotate, there would still have been a dark place and a light place. Further more, there were places in the Universe that were light, and places that were dark long before Earth came into existence. So, that’s bad.
And in verse five, the final verse of day one, God names the light day and the dark, night and there’s an evening and a morning. One day. Well, I don’t think there was any naming of things until humans came around quite a bit down the road in the Earth’s history. Further more, this, even if it was in the proper order, could not have happened in 24 hours, which it is being described as happening during. There may have been some lee-way with day one since it is late in the first day that day and night are created, but I believe that it is supposed to represent the same amount of time as the other days (definitely 24 hours after day and night were made) because it is referred to in the same way.
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God is something if he [...] exists.[...] If something created him, what? And where did that something come from?
Well, I read an interesting article a while back about how God was agnostic, not knowing His own existence, before He created the world. So before that, He was an entity that didn't have properties... He wasn't a creator, because He hadn't created anything. He wasn't a father because He hadn't fathered anything, etc. It was an interesting way to look at things.
~C
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I would be interested in reading that. Would you mind giving me a link or telling me where it could be found?
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
Keep in mind, it's written by a rabbi: http://www.chabad.org/library/article.htm/aid/443985/jewish/Is-Gd-an-Agn...
~C
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Thanks. And, that is a very interesting way of looking at things.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
thanks for writing this, I've been meaning to read a bit of the Bible (if not all) so I could also understand and not be ignorant of Christianity
and this is SO much of a big help
i usually get distracted by novels and other books and authors like right now I have been meaning to read "A thousand Splendid Sons" by Khaled Hosseini
"Pride is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right."
Well, there will definitely be more. I can't say how much more, that all depends on my schedule, but there will be something.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
not being Christian because so much literature made references to the Bible
edited to add, did i ever mention how much of a fan (to an extent) i am of Bill Maher (he's an atheist)
"Pride is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right."
Well, I did read that blog. I like Bill Maher myself.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
i was on a roll, watching one episode after the other and then when i came tot he 95th one, i had to write about it because
I mean come on Chris Rock and his articulate self was on it and Dan Rather- wow, i thought journalism-- was--dead but i guess i was just trying to be a pessimist, like always...and so since i really did not sleep at all last night, i just thought what the heck, put the time to good use but i have to say, stewart and colbert's conovs with each other are something i want to share too, i have an article and i love the two when they get together--double the madness and genius that can actaully exist in the same room...aaah, crazyness
"Pride is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right."
"Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter." - Twain
i dont understand why people would consider the bible to be non fiction after readin these 5 first verses
All great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-Albert Einstein
"i dont understand why people would consider the bible to be non fiction after readin these 5 first verses"
I'm pretty sure none of us were there, equally likely none of us have any idea what the only character is really capable of. Hard to judge it on that basis.
"Forgive him, for he thinks that the customs of his island and tribe are the natural laws of the world."
A fact is always better than an ideal
well, the thing about this is that, no one was there, and so no one can say for sure. no matter what you believe. christians have no proof. evolutionists have no proof, and athiests have no proof. the fact is that we came somehow and we were not always here. we appeared somehow, and the only explanation is that something came out of nothing and this is simply one belief on how that happened. It taKes faith to believe it, but it takes faith to believe anything about religeon or lack of one. to believe something is true and you cannot see it requires faith.
A jury is asked to find someone guilty if it is proved beyond reasonable doubt.
The only thing that I know to be absolutely true is that I exist, mentally.
However, there is very little evidence available to hold up the religious argument. There is a ton of evidence that upholds evolution.
As for the Atheist view point, there is logical evidence that can, at the very least, show the logical impossibility of the god described by the bible.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
Actually evolution is the only one of those which is a theory, which means its been tested over and over again and has yet to be falsified. that's more proof than any of them
All great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-Albert Einstein
maybe the beginning is written in regards to the beginning of the world. It's just a story like the myths about the greek gods.
Well, yes, as far as I'm concerned it is just a story.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
that asks you to believe it without actually thinking about it because once you start thinking and using your reasonable and logical analytic capabilities-
you start questioning and in religion- you aren't supposed to question, it's faith but of course i questioned a lot and then i wanted answers....
it's always good to find someone who knows the religion you have doubts about (I mean---knows it really well-- and you know that the person would not lie to you or give you a real bias perspective just so you would remain a follower) and then get the answers for questions you have
but of course once you've started really thinking and questioning, you want answers that make sense and I don't think that most religions could give you those
I'm including Islam in this-since that is what I can say I know and talk about
"Pride is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right."
"Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter." - Twain
"The first question that we must ask ourselves is “in the beginning of what?” Another question is “Where was god before the beginning?” How could god exist before the start? "
Have you asked the same question concerning the 'Big Bang?' What was it that Banged, exactly?
I exist, I'm not so sure about the rest of you, but I'll accept you all on faith.
A fact is always better than an ideal
True. The language that most people use is less precise than it could be. There is evidence that people can understand that point to certain conclusions. Therefore, accepting on some sort of faith that other people exist is different from accepting that, say, the Loch Ness Monster on faith.
As for the Big Bang, I can barely understand physics myself, let alone even attempt to explain it, but I do understand that there are some interesting theories out there. I wish I could be more detailed, but even those few that I can sort of understand are way beyond my ability to coherently explain.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
The more the theories try to explain really fundamental things the more theoretical they become.
I was just pointing out that some faith is present in everyone. Once an atheist accepts that I have him on the 'slippery slope' ;-)
A fact is always better than an ideal
No. You really don't have me on a slippery slope. I accept that I technically have to have some faith that the world around me exists. Howevere, there are incredibly good reasons to believe that it does.
There is not any evidence that leads me to believe in the existence of a higher force. Show me that, and I'll accept it.
What, exactly, do you mean by fundamental things?
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
"What, exactly, do you mean by fundamental things?"
Recognition that your perception of the rest of the world is based on assumption, and assigning it reliable properties is only posible through faith
Realization that 'I don't KNOW anything' in any absolute sense is an important piece of neccesary humility. Positivism is made invalid by honest acceptance of your intrinsic short comings as a human.
"for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"
I have explaied in greater detail in this post
http://www.progressiveu.org/035310-is-god-real#comment-188878
My view is simply that any All powerful God must be identical to Truth with a capital 'T" or every bit of the absolute unknowable Truth. If that is not true of the God you picture, then that God is not The God that created all existence.
"I am the Alpha (begining) and the Omega (end)."
"I am the way the truth and the light."
Interestingly this is at its core a rationalist argument, yet beleivers accept the definition easily (it does not confirm or deny other properties and intents you think the allmighty has) while people who claim to be ruled by rationality generaly reject it. I guess that is because they see the slippery slope.
Once God=Truth in your perception then obeying the (will of the) Truth is easy. It isn't too hard to pray to or worship the Truth from there. Like I said, a slippery slope.
A fact is always better than an ideal
Not all assumptions are of equal validity. I can assume that someone named Joe is a man or a woman. Technically, either of these could be true, but it would be a better guess to say that the person is a man. No one knows anything for absolute certainty beyond the fact that they exist in some way shape or form. But, based on the evidence of my senses and on logic, I can assume that the rest of the world exists. That is an intellegent assumption to make.
If there is an all-powerful god, that god may be synomomous to truth, then again maybe it wouldn't be. That leaves the if, though. This leaves you in the circular logic hole. Basically, you are saying, if a particular god exists, then that particular god exists. Obviously this is not a good argument.
I am not a believer. I have been given no reason to make the assumption that any sort of deity exists. That is the one and only reason for why I do not believe in god. I do not believe that god =Truth. I believe that god=fictional. And, I do not worship the truth. If I have good reason to believe that something is true, then I accept it, that is all.
The problem with your argument is that there is no reason to accept that god=Truth.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
If you don't seek you won't find. I can't prove it, but examining the Bible is either seeking to find, or ridicule.
No proof intended ;-) Can't say I'v ever seen the rascal outside of a math class.
Just a definition. You won't find many beleivers that worship anything they do not consider the truth. Satanists maybe? I wouldn't know.
A fact is always better than an ideal
I don't think that people who truly worshiped Satan would not believe in him. I am always open to being proved wrong. I would be perfectly fine if I could be shown some evidence that god existed. One reason I am drawn to theological arguments is that I would like to see if someone could come up with some really good evidence, that they could share with people who don't already have faith, that there is a god.
Proof, of course, is not the most precise word, but I think it conveys the point. I'm not looking for definitive proof. I'm looking for proof beyond reasonable doubt.
As I said, there are people on this site who take the bible litterally. Besides, I enjoy it. I'm looking at the other side and seeing if it stands up to my observation.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
Nothing against the Satanists, I was just thinking of his nick name 'The Prince of Lies."
Proof is mathematical (logical), evidence is physical. A better term might be understanding since this is more along the lines of conceptual or spiritual.
Jesus said "unless you are born again you will in no way enter into the kingdom of heaven" so an Epiphany is called for, not a gradual increase of knowledge. I have experienced somethimg that I would equate to being 'born again' but explaining it, or describing why it is neccesary is beyond my understanding and ability.
A fact is always better than an ideal
Forgot about that name for Satan.
I both believe that god is illogical and that there is a lack of evidence pointing towards his existence.
If I could be provided with a piece of infomration that shows that god exists, that would be an epiphany. I will not, however, just start believing for no reason.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
"I both believe that god is illogical and that there is a lack of evidence pointing towards his existence."
"I will not, however, just start believing for no reason."
Are you sure you have not already?
I apologize for the twisting of words, but I was once an atheist. Agnostics have the impenetrable fortress in their debating position. Atheism is a negative affirmation just like my definition is a positive one. I do not pretend that defining what I mean when I say God proves anything, just as I'm sure you know your disbeleif is not logic or evidence either.
A fact is always better than an ideal
As a matter of fact, no, I do not believe in anything for no reason. Nor do I not believe in something for no reason. I have reasons for my lack of belief. That reason is that atheism is a negative connotation is because it has been made negative. All it means, very simply, is that I do not believe it god. I do not KNOW that god does not exist, something few Atheists will claim. I claim that I have been presented with no evidence that he exists as well as evidence that points away from his existence.
My disbelief is not logic or evidence. It is based on logic and atheists. Everyone is technically agnostic to some degree, or at least most people. However, what agnosticism usually means is the idea that each opinion is equal, the probability of god's existence is equal to the probability of his non-existence. I do not agree with that.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
I am very interested in reading your commentary on the Bible. It will be interesting to see what you think as you get into some of the other stories. There are some pretty amazing stories further into the Bible. Keep the commentary coming!
Thanks, of course, I've hit one of the chapters that is just geaneology, so I have to work up the enthusiasm to cover that. I do intend to keep going though, at least for a while.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil